# Was the death of Jaco Pastorius malicious or self-defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2007, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975 "2007-12-14T07:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/1 "2007-12-14T07:10:42Z")
The great bassist [Pastorius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaco_pastorius) was killed by a club bouncer after getting into a fight with him. This has long been lamented as a tragedy. According to that article, the man who killed him was convicted of second degree murder, but only served four months. This would lead me to believe that perhaps he was acting in self-defense. Pastorius suffered from mental problems and was extremely violent - it’s not inconceivable that the bouncer felt that his life was in danger and was forced to respond accordingly. Does anyone here know more details of this incident? ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/2 "2007-12-14T10:55:52Z")
I’m a big fan of Jaco,especially w/ the Report & Joni Mitchell.But he was an arrogant ass in many ways,with definite drug/alcohol exacerbation. This is from a chance encounter in a music store,Philly area,later 70s.His dad lived in Norristown vicinity. You ask for details of his actual death;I have none,yet can easily see how his own behaviour precipitated demise.Tragedy it was. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/3 "2007-12-14T11:25:54Z")
[QUOTE=Carson O’Genic] I’m a big fan of Jaco,especially w/ the Report & Joni Mitchell.But he was an arrogant ass in many ways,with definite drug/alcohol exacerbation. This is from a chance encounter in a music store,Philly area,later 70s.His dad lived in Norristown vicinity. You ask for details of his actual death;I have none,yet can easily see how his own behaviour precipitated demise.Tragedy it was. [/QUOTE] How (and why) did you acquire your punctuation style? I don’t mean to get off-track, but it is rather the elephant in the room and you brought it in. I find it hard to read, and wonder whether for you it is a novelty of some kind or whether it assists you in some way. Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/4 "2007-12-14T11:58:51Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] How (and why) did you acquire your punctuation style? I don’t mean to get off-track, but it is rather the elephant in the room and you brought it in. I find it hard to read, and wonder whether for you it is a novelty of some kind or whether it assists you in some way. Just curious. [/QUOTE] ``` Not sure how to answer your question without getting further off-track or TMI. I'm sorry for the hard-to-read elephant when the intent is to be clear and informative. ``` ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/5 "2007-12-14T15:09:02Z")
I think his injuries were pretty extensive, more than you would think it would take to stop somebody. Was he violent? I know he had problems but I didn’t remember reading anything about violence. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/6 "2007-12-14T15:48:25Z")
Not the greatest source in the world, but [this](http://www.talkbass.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-276779.html) (starting about halfway down) indicates that the bouncer was not in fact convicted of murder, but was allowed to plead guilty to manslaughter because the prosecution’s case was not great. Make of it what you will. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/7 "2007-12-14T15:59:06Z")
There are several contradictory versions of what happened to Pastorius. Luc Havan, who was brought to trial for second degreee murder of Jaco, now lives in Palm Beach County. A local newspaper _viz._ the [New Times](http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2006-11-30/news/jaco-incorporated/5) claims to have spoken to Havan on the phone last year to ascertain his version of events. Havan was outside the Midnight Bottle club in Wilton Manors when Pastorius attempted to gain access. This is from the horse’s mouth or, if you prefer, from the mouth of the elephant: > [@](#): > > “I just said, ‘Listen, you’re too drunk. You can’t come in,’” recalls Havan, who says he also extended a peace offering. “But come back tomorrow night, not all drunk like tonight, and everything is on me.” > > Havan says he told employee Cristy Eaton to cover Jaco’s tab the next time they saw him sober. “Because I knew who he was, and I’d heard how he gets when people don’t recognize him and things.” > > With that, Havan says he turned around and walked away. “But he started to hit me, and I had a knee-jerk reaction, and I hit him. I tried to tell him to leave it on a good note, but, you know…” > > At the time, Jaco had made himself unwelcome at almost every other watering hole in the area. “That’s probably why he got mad at me telling him I couldn’t let him in,” Havan guesses. “I’d heard he was living on the street.” > > Havan remembers throwing a punch that hit Jaco’s left temple. “That’s where I admitted to hitting him, and that’s where he got hit. But his major fracture was on the right side when he fell. The other side of his head hit the ledge by the door.” However: > [@](#): > > But another witness told police Havan had actually pummeled Pastorius, and the man’s injuries — his teeth had come through his lips — were too ferocious to have come from a simple fall. Luc Havan was charged with second degree murder but was convicted of the lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter and served 8 months of a 2 year sentence. It’s doubtful that he acted in self-defence believing his life was in danger simply because he is experienced in martial arts. A report of the trial proceedings doesn’t appear to be available but it would seem the jury bought in to Havan’s version of what happened to Pastorius and deliberated accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/8 "2007-12-14T17:25:49Z")
[QUOTE=Chez Guevara] It’s doubtful that he acted in self-defence believing his life was in danger simply because he is experienced in martial arts. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry but that makes no sense to me at all. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/9 "2007-12-14T17:39:11Z")
Hell, there’s no need to apologise. Now that I read it again it doesn’t make much sense to me either. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that an apparently fit, sober guy versed in the disciplines of martial arts should be capable of employing less harmful but still effective means of immobilising a drunken person. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/10 "2007-12-14T21:48:09Z")
[QUOTE=Carson O’Genic] Not sure how to answer your question without getting further off-track or TMI. I’m sorry for the hard-to-read elephant when the intent is to be clear and informative. [/QUOTE] I once read an edition of _Just So Stories_ that was printed on an elephant, but it was hard to get the elephant to stand still and a lot of the text was aliased by the wrinkles. Zebras are also hard to read from for obvious reasons, and while the color of the American Mountain Lion provides decent contrast they’re damn hard to keep up with. In regard to a bouncer non-injuriously subduing an aggressive customer, I’m inclined not to judge without facts. There are certainly over-aggressive bouncers who relish the opportunity to literally bounce a patron off the sidewalk, but many that I’ve known really just want to go home at the end of the night with minimal injury, and to that end have a repertoire of non-violent methods to convince someone that it is in their best interest to leave. That Jaco Pastorius had a reputation for unprovoked violent behavior suggests that while the bouncer’s actions may have been excessive they were not necessarily malicious or completely unjustified. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/11 "2007-12-15T06:59:27Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m sorry but that makes no sense to me at all. Don’t you think a bouncer, whose _job_ is to remove unwanted patrons with physical force, would be capable of doing so without killing them? Especially one trained in non-lethal self-defense? > [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > it was hard to get the elephant to stand still Well, you could’ve rode the damn thing while you read most of it, and you could’ve strapped yourself underneath it like Odysseus’s men escaping from the Cyclops to read most of the rest. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/12 "2007-12-15T19:34:25Z")
I’m not sure how much stock to put in the Wikipedia account, but this description: > [@wikipedia](#): > > Pastorius was hospitalized for multiple facial fractures and gruesome disfigurement to his face, including the probable loss of his right eye and right arm, and had sustained irreversible brain damage. made me wonder just how bad the bouncer must have beaten him. Probable loss of his **arm**? Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/13 "2007-12-15T21:20:37Z")
[QUOTE=ntucker] I’m not sure how much stock to put in the Wikipedia account, but this description:made me wonder just how bad the bouncer must have beaten him. Probable loss of his **arm**? Jesus. [/QUOTE] I assume that was from damage to the brain, not the physical loss of his arm. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/14 "2007-12-16T05:30:50Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I assume that was from damage to the brain, not the physical loss of his arm. [/QUOTE] You can lose your arm from brain damage? Or are you thinking they were probably talking about him losing **use** of the arm rather than the actual arm itself? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2007, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-death-of-jaco-pastorius-malicious-or-self-defense/429975/15 "2007-12-16T05:50:43Z")
[QUOTE=chorpler] You can lose your arm from brain damage? Or are you thinking they were probably talking about him losing **use** of the arm rather than the actual arm itself? [/QUOTE] That’s what I meant.