# Was the decline of the British Empire inevitable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372 "2019-01-25T07:27:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/21 "2019-01-25T22:45:18Z")
How can you educate a subjugated people to compete in a industrial economy, without opening the door to revolution? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/22 "2019-01-25T23:30:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see how the process could have been avoided. The only significant change I think was possible would have been if the British had participated in the change rather than resisting it. That was possible; it happened in places like Australia or Canada where the British government willingly handed all practical political power over to the local population and was able to therefore maintain some symbolic control. But in most of the Empire, the British resisted giving up political power and the result was that gaining political rights became linked with fighting against the British. The ‘local population’ in both those locations got exterminated or driven onto reservations to drink themselves to death, but the ‘transplanted population’ did pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/23 "2019-01-25T23:36:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see how the process could have been avoided. Give the colonies representation in the House of Commons. Ennoble some of them for the House of Lords. It would be tricky insuring that England would still run the show; perhaps give each colony one representative in both houses. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/24 "2019-01-26T00:07:33Z")
To manage a colonial administration and civil service you need an educated class. Many of the leaders of independence movements were lawyers who were educated in the UK. It does not take much examination of British history to spot the obvious lessons about the development of fair government that were incompatible with imperial rule. Moreover the political movements like the Fabians and the trade unions that were fighting for the rights of industrial workers were clearly a struggle that could find parallels in the colonies. Indian lawyers returned with lots of ideas about how things could change. Similar, perhaps, to the earlier contradiction between Christian teaching spread by missionaries and the slave labour on which plantation economies depended. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/25 "2019-01-26T00:18:44Z")
How is that going to work, with 300 million heathen Hindoos with one representative, and 40 million Brits with 669 representatives? The problem is that the non-white subject peoples of the colonies had ten times the population of the metropole. So any system where the subject peoples had any real kind of real say would mean they’d run the Empire rather than the Brits. So that would never happen. I mean, it would be one thing if white Canadians and Australians had a say, but you can’t extend real political rights to the Indians and Africans without turning the Empire on its head. Of course it wasn’t until 1918 that you got male universal suffrage in the UK itself. Up until then most of the criteria to restrict suffrage would exclude 99% of subject people. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/26 "2019-01-26T01:37:49Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > How is that going to work, with 300 million heathen Hindoos with one representative, and 40 million Brits with 669 representatives? The problem is that the non-white subject peoples of the colonies had ten times the population of the metropole. So any system where the subject peoples had any real kind of real say would mean they’d run the Empire rather than the Brits. > > So that would never happen. I mean, it would be one thing if white Canadians and Australians had a say, but you can’t extend real political rights to the Indians and Africans without turning the Empire on its head. > > Of course it wasn’t until 1918 that you got male universal suffrage in the UK itself. Up until then most of the criteria to restrict suffrage would exclude 99% of subject people. I said it would be tricky. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/27 "2019-01-26T01:39:38Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Similar, perhaps, to the earlier contradiction between Christian teaching spread by missionaries and the slave labour on which plantation economies depended. The British ended the importation of slaves. A Prime Minister gave President Obama a desk set carved from the wood of a captured slave ships. Obama gave him some DVDs. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/28 "2019-01-26T05:19:38Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > The ‘local population’ in both those locations got exterminated or driven onto reservations to drink themselves to death, but the ‘transplanted population’ did pretty well. Yes, the local population was killed off and a bunch of settlers took over their land. And you know what happens a hundred years later? The descendants of those settlers have become the new local population. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/29 "2019-01-26T07:47:38Z")
I’d argue that the Empire’s dismantling became inevitable with the invention of the airplane. It made imperial defence too expensive. It presented a machine of war whereby a non-naval power could bypass Britain’s navy and attack the home islands directly. That, and once India became independent, the rationale for much of the rest of the Empire left with it. Much of the Empire was created to defend India, after all. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/30 "2019-01-26T10:47:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The British ended the importation of slaves. Go on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/31 "2019-01-26T16:50:54Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I’d argue that the Empire’s dismantling became inevitable with the invention of the airplane. It made imperial defence too expensive. I think it’s generally believed the opposite is true. Supporting a large navy or a large army is expensive. But planes and missiles give you a lot of offensive power for relatively little cost. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/32 "2019-01-26T17:13:36Z")
The most effective way to suppress rebellions is like the Nazis did in Eastern Europe and Russia: If there’s trouble in an area, you harm the civilian population as collective punishment. Imagine doing My Lai all over a country as a matter of routine policy. That doesn’t play well with (especially visual) mass media, the importance of public opinion, democracy and the Nazis showing that racist government and aggressive territorial expansion maybe weren’t great things after all. It’s how the North Vietnamese figured they would get the US foreign presence out of their country, which they very much saw as an anti-colonial objective. It might have been possible to keep former colonies in a closely integrated Commonwealth, something like the European Union and NATO but with the UK as the most influential member. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/33 "2019-01-26T17:41:44Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > The most effective way to suppress rebellions is like the Nazis did in Eastern Europe and Russia Is It? Because as I recall it didn’t work out all that well for them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/34 "2019-01-26T17:48:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Is It? Because as I recall it didn’t work out all that well for them. It’s hard to say. Obviously there was another major factor at work; the Nazis were fighting a war with Russia, Britain, and America. So it’s hard to isolate how much effect the resistance inside their conquered territories affected them. Was the resistance another major front in the war? Would the resistance alone have been enough to topple the Nazi regime if it hadn’t been fighting conventional wars? Or was Germany defeated just by the conventional wars with the resistance having no significant effect on the outcome? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/35 "2019-01-26T18:31:42Z")
I’m not saying they lost WW2 because of resistance, I’m just pointing out that collective punishment just encouraged more people to become partisans in revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/36 "2019-01-26T21:18:42Z")
It was inevitable for many reasons. Colonialism was starting to run its course, too many territories too far away, too many domestic concerns, and too little willingness to employ extreme and unreasonable methods. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/37 "2019-01-26T22:27:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Is It? Because as I recall it didn’t work out all that well for them. Depends on the situation. The best way is to not have a rebellion in the first place. Lots of ways to avoid that. Usually by giving the opposition a real voice or being a popular ruler with a strong economy and enough freedom that people don’t feel too oppressed. Once you do have a rebellion, sometimes heavy handed tactics are your best bet. The trick is to have a core of supporters that link their existence to your survival. To be tangential, but I think relevant - During the Arab Spring, I told my wife that Assad wasn’t Libya or Tunisia. Assad would never lose the Alawites, period. They know that a Sunni win equals their genocide. They were in an existential battle and those battles are hard to win and always bloody. The rebels best bet was bringing the Christians and Druze into their fold and in the beginning both were pro-rebel. Assad checked them by releasing AQI leaders and poisoning that relationship and that linked Christian survival to him as well. The game wasn’t over, the rebels could have genocided their way to the coast and they gave it an honest shot, but it made the playing field more even, too even and once it became clear that Assad wasn’t a losing horse, Russian and Iranian influence sealed the deal. This is only to say that being heavy handed can certainly be a winning strategy and I would contend that in Syria’s case and there are certainly many others it is the strategy most likely to lead to the government maintaining power. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/38 "2019-01-26T22:56:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think it’s generally believed the opposite is true. Supporting a large navy or a large army is expensive. But planes and missiles give you a lot of offensive power for relatively little cost. Exactly. Which makes _defending_ the Empire all that much more expensive, while every rebellion can now afford serious weaponry. Really, RPGs, MANPADs and AKs killed the idea of massed armies. When every mother’s son (and every mother, for that matter) can take out a Hind, Abrams or platoon, it is just too bloody _expensive_ to try to maintain a global empire. Hell, think about how much richer the US would be if we didn’t piss away mega-trillions sticking our noses into everybody’s business all over the planet. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/39 "2019-01-27T11:01:39Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > It would be one thing to loot the world and become fabulously rich, but to loot the world and gain almost nothing? You’re forgetting the profits from empire as a source of funding for the Industrial Revolution, and the role of colonial food imports - while it all lasted. True, ultimately the position of sterling as a major international currency became a burden rather than a benefit, but for a long while it was indeed a benefit. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372/40 "2019-01-27T13:39:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The British ended the importation of slaves. A Prime Minister gave President Obama a desk set carved from the wood of a captured slave ships. Obama gave him some DVDs. And yet, he’s still loved more than Bush or Trump. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-decline-of-the-british-empire-inevitable/828372.md?page=3)