# Was the Devil ever in hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 1999, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047 "1999-12-10T20:35:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 1999, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/21 "1999-12-11T23:44:00Z")
Start it out “well, I would like to talk about the man whose birth we celebrate on Dec. 25…”, list all the attributes, and then “Yes, I’m talking about Mithra, who predated Christ by 200 years. Of course, just because every _other_ religion seems to get its stories and beliefs from a magpie-like borrowing from other religions with some local color and imagination thrown in, doesn’t mean Christianity did. Nope, all those stories are 100% literally true, it’s just an amazing coincidence.” I believe the party line is that other religions have similar stories because God was giving out hints of what was to come. I think Vrishna and Quexalcote were even crucified between two thieves. Around the time of Mithraism, though, Christians said the similarities were from the devil, to confuse people and mock God. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 1999, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/22 "1999-12-11T23:53:00Z")
That’s a lot of bull!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/23 "1999-12-12T00:02:00Z")
As I’ve mentioned before, I do my posting at the Library. I looked through their catalog and found this book listed: _Mithras, the Secret God_, by Maarten Jozef Vermaseren. Can any of you recommend it? I’d also like to ask a favor of one of you\> if you click on this link, [http://catalog.lapl.org/](http://catalog.lapl.org/) you should be able to access the LAPL Catalog. Searching under “Mithraism” gives ten titles. Can any of you recommend any of them? I’m only vaguely familiar with Zoroastrianism (That’s based on the guy who made the “Z” with his sword, right? :)), and I’d like to know a bit more. A search on Yahoo gives a lot of links, but more than I can read here and I can’t take any of it home, so a book would be best. Thanks a lot, guys! * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/24 "1999-12-12T00:12:00Z")
No, JAB, that’s a cut-rate imitation of him. Like this: a poor wannabe poet is called a “poetaster”, so a poor wannabe Zorro would be… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 1999, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/25 "1999-12-12T19:40:00Z")
I can’t recommend a book, since my knowledge of Mithraism was gleaned from various diverse sources, not from any books specifically focussed on Mitraism. However, if _you_ find a good book, jab, let me know what the title was and I’ll track it down and read it myself. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/26 "1999-12-13T15:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d also like to ask a favor of one of you\> if you click on this link, [http://catalog.lapl.org/](http://catalog.lapl.org/) you should be able to access the LAPL Catalog. > Searching under “Mithraism” gives ten titles. Can any of you recommend any > of them? > > I’m only vaguely familiar with Zoroastrianism (That’s based on the guy who > made the “Z” with his sword, right? ), and I’d like to know a bit more. I’ve read the book by David Ulansey, “The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient world”. It was awhile ago, but IIRC it seemed pretty good. Ulansey, unlike many earlier scholars, believed Mithraism had little to do with Zoroastrianism. He maintained it was a mystery religion developed in Asia Minor by Hellenistic Greek settlers. They just borrowed the name of a Persian god to add a touch of the exotic. Again IIRC, Ulansey indicated its origin, or at least an early center, was in the province of Cilicia, on the southern coast of what is now Turkey. I found that a little intriguing since Cilicia was the home province of Saul/Paul of Tarsus. Might that explain some of the parallels between Pauline theology and Mithraic theology? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/27 "1999-12-13T15:38:00Z")
That’s one of the theories I’ve heard. “Tarsus, the home of St. Paul, was one of the great centres of his worship, being the chief city of the Cilicians; and, as will presently appear, there is a decided tinge of Mithraism in the Epistles and Gospels. Thus the designations of our Lord as the Dayspring from on High [Luke, i. 78.], the Light [2 Cor. iv. 6; Eph. v. 13, 14; I. Thess. v. 5; etc.], the Sun of Righteousness [Malachi iv. 2; and much used in Christianity.], and similar expressions, are borrowed from or related to Mithraic phraseology.” ## –commentry from “The Paganism in Our Christianity” by Arthur Weigall “…Mithras the Sun-God Was a jolly happy soul, And he slew a bull On solstice day So the world would not get cold…” Happy Mithrasmas, all! ---
**Author:** ![\_Df](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/7ba0ec/32.png) [@\_Df](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Df)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/28 "1999-12-13T20:18:00Z")
Okay, since the thread has veered slightly, let me ask y’all if you can confirm Isaac Asimov’s statement (I cannot currently find my cite) that ‘Lucifer’ (aka The Morning Star) was a title given a King of a competing people (the Babylonians, I believe?), the inference being that Lucifer was a historical person (or lineage of people) and NEVER had any connection to (the mythical figure) ‘Satan’ until modern Christians got it all screwed up. Certainly my brief reading of a passage including Lucifer could be read that way, but I’m no Biblical scholar. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/29 "1999-12-13T20:28:00Z")
I always thought it was related to the Prometheus myths; Prometheus brought light (fire) to man and Lucifer was the “lightbringer”. Both got punished for giving man things that were supposed to belong to the gods alone, and brought the gods’ wrath upon man. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 1999, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/30 "1999-12-13T20:29:00Z")
Now that I think on it, Lucifer was punished _before_ he gave man knowledge of good and evil. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/31 "1999-12-14T02:47:00Z")
Also, I don’t believe “Lucifer” was ever mentioned in the Old Testament, although Satan was in the Book of Job. Surely the identity of Satan as a “Fallen Lucifer” wasn’t invented until the New Testament came out. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/32 "1999-12-14T02:58:00Z")
_Isa 14:12_ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Only appearance of the name I can find with my on-line concordance. AND, its in the Old Testament. Most all of demonology is extra-Biblical. * * * Dr. Fidelius, Charlatan Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University “You cannot reason a man out of a position he did not reach through reason.” And mäni interesting furry animals ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/33 "1999-12-14T03:01:00Z")
Hmmm. Lucifer’s Fall appears in Isaiah. Well, I’ll be darned. How much does Satan appear in the Old Testament outside the Book of Job? ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/34 "1999-12-14T19:49:00Z")
I live in Raleigh, NC. That should answer this question… * * * Yer pal, Satan ---
**Author:** ![\_Df](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/7ba0ec/32.png) [@\_Df](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Df)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/35 "1999-12-14T21:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Sounds like political commentary to me. The Big Nation on the Corner goes through some hard times, which economic troubles propagate to neighboring nation-tribes, and the historian points out that the leader of the BNotC is no longer as high ‘n’ mighty as he once was. So what’s the context that makes it sound more like demonology than just a not-very-hard-to-read assessment of current affairs? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/36 "1999-12-14T22:16:00Z")
I’m not a Bible or history expert, but I agree with what {- :Df said. Isaiah 14 appears to be referring to the Babylon and its king. The Hebrew word for “Lucifer” (helel)\* has no demonic connotations of its own. \*That might not be exact, but, again, I’m not a Hebrew scholar. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/37 "1999-12-14T22:16:00Z")
Satan: ROFL!!! 🙂 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/38 "1999-12-14T22:18:00Z")
Lucifer, Satan, the Devil, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles… Just how many names does Old Scratch have? So, **{:-DF** , are you saying that _Isaiah_ 14:12 is actually referring to a king, a person, a real Human being and not the Devil? That this King screwed up royally 🙂 and the writer is commenting on his stupidity? And that “Lucifer” should not even _be_ a name for the Devil Himself? Intriguing. I think Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, _et al_ would disagree. * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/39 "1999-12-14T22:19:00Z")
TRIPLE-POST!!! * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/40 "1999-12-14T22:22:00Z")
Sorry, {:-Df, for putting your nose over your eyebrows. I haven’t learned all the rules yet about spelling with unpronounceable symbols. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047.md?page=3)