# Was the Devil ever in hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 1999, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047 "1999-12-10T20:35:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 1999, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/41 "1999-12-14T22:50:00Z")
Satan, Lucifer, fallen angel, rebel angel, Archfiend, Prince of Darkness, Prince of this world, serpent, Old Serpent, Tempter, Adversary, Antichrist, Common Enemy, Enemy of mankind Diabolus, Father of Lies, evil genie, Shaitan, George W. Bush, Eblis, King of Hell, angel of the bottomless pit, Apollyon, Abaddon, the Foul Fiend, the Devil, the Evil One, Wicked One, Old Nick, cloven hoof, spirit of evil, principle of evil, Angra Mainyu, Ahriman . . . But remember, Baal, Beelzebub, Asmodean, etc, are different folks, not the Big Nasty Guy. The one that always got to me, **Jab** , was the Lucifer=Morningstar connection. I always thought that the Judeo-Xian equation of Satan with the planet Venus was really funny. Hmmm . . . Goddess of Love, Avatar of Evil. Love . . . Evil . . . Love . . . Evil . . . Guess I’ll take evil. That Venus is just a tramp anyway. 😉 -andros- ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 1999, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/42 "1999-12-15T15:07:00Z")
Satan,are you saying living in Raleigh is Hell? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/43 "1999-12-16T06:02:00Z")
OC, you have to remember that he thinks that New York City is Heaven. 😉 Hmmm, methinks we have an interesting plot line developing here, kind of a secular Paradise Lost. Anybody want to have some fun with that one? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![\_Df](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/7ba0ec/32.png) [@\_Df](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Df)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/44 "1999-12-16T01:11:00Z")
**jab1** , I refer you to my earlier post, in which I paraphrase Isaac Asimov as stating that “Lucifer” was, IIRC, a Babylonian term for their own king, which translated as ‘morning star,’ ‘first light of day,’ something princely like that. It’s not so much that I am saying it, as _asking_ it. Can Asimov’s assertion be independently confirmed? If so, I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to imagine that Biblical authors, when writing of “Lucifer,” _might_ have been referring to the well-known personage of that time and place _called_ Lucifer. It certainly wouldn’t have been out of character with much else of what made its way into the Bible. Support for this idea (but not proof) might be found in the very passages referring to Lucifer: can they be easily interpreted as non-demonic, historical references, in light of the above assertion? So far, from the single quote found in this thread, I would answer affirmatively. Other references to ‘Lucifer’ might not support this thesis, or might force us to resort to more interpretive theses, much like those that hold John’s writings in Revelations referred, metaphorically but still directly, to ‘Rome and its (anti-Christ) Emperor.’ “Intriguing,” as you say. As for your final observation…well, I submit that it’s also not much of a stretch of credibility to imagine that the actual meaning of the Biblical authors _vis-a-vis_ Lucifer has been lost, and that current religious personalities like those you list might now interpret those and other passages as best fits their desires and motivations, caring nothing for the truth of the original meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/45 "1999-12-16T06:23:00Z")
Where in the Bible does it actually say that Satan rules over Hell? Isn’t he just another one of it’s citizens? He would only have the power of an archangel, nothing near Godlike, anyway. So wherein did our stories come from of a antithesis of God, ruler of Hell? –Tim * * * We are the children of the Eighties. We are not the first “lost generation” nor today’s lost generation; in fact, we think we know just where we stand - or are discovering it as we speak. ---
**Author:** ![Snark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Snark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/46 "1999-12-16T17:11:00Z")
Regarding the similarities between Mithra and Jesus: Of course, my religion teaches that Christianity has been around ever since Adam, so, IMHO, Mithraism is simply a religion that borrowed its theology from B.C.E. Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/47 "1999-12-16T17:17:00Z")
What was Christianity before Christ made his physical appearance in around 4 B.C.? ---
**Author:** ![Snark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Snark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/48 "1999-12-16T17:43:00Z")
Gaudere, read the Book of Mormon for a well-presented description of B.C.E. Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/49 "1999-12-16T17:45:00Z")
Aww…Snark, I’m lazy. Not even a leetle hint? What section of the BoM is it in, anyhow? ---
**Author:** ![Snark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Snark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 1999, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/50 "1999-12-17T06:14:00Z")
ARRRRRGGHHHHH! Every time I try to type in some relevant scriptural references for you, Gaudere, my new ISP (CompuServe) logs me off for “inactivity.” Guess who’s quitting CompuServe? Suffice it to say that most of the Book of Mormon contains Christian doctrine. You might want to check out 1 Nephi chapters 10-12, for starters. It describes the conception, birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Christ from a perspective of a prophet (Nephi) who lived circa 600 B.C. I’d type more, but Big Brother CompuServe probably thinks I’m being too “idle,” so this will have to do. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 1999, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/51 "1999-12-17T06:34:00Z")
Thanks, Snark. I am really not up on my Mormon doctrine; I had no idea Jesus was hanging out that early, although I did know He bopped over to America for a time. ---
**Author:** ![Snark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Snark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 1999, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/52 "1999-12-17T06:41:00Z")
As a matter of fact, Mormons believe that Jesus was the God of the Jews, known in his pre-mortal state as “Jehovah.” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 1999, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/53 "1999-12-17T06:59:00Z")
Snark,Jesus is also considered the God of the Gentiles re new testamnet.BTW,what happened to your e-address??? yours… ---
**Author:** ![Snark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Snark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/54 "1999-12-16T19:04:00Z")
Orangecakes, yes, I know Jesus is the God of the Gentiles. As for my e-mail address, I am going to be cancelling CompuServe sometime soon, so my old AOL address will have to do for now. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/55 "1999-12-16T19:37:00Z")
Snark, I’m still confused about B.C.E. Christianity. Most Christians believe Isaiah (singular or plural) prophesied about Jesus several centuries before His arrival, but that doesn’t mean Christianity existed then. In which hemisphere did Nephi prophesy - West or East? ---
**Author:** ![Snark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Snark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/56 "1999-12-16T20:13:00Z")
RTFirefly, Nephi was led away from Jerusalem about 600 B.C.E. with his father’s family by God. They crossed the ocean and settled in the Western hemisphere (the Americas). As I understand it, all prophets since the world began have testified of Christ. Here’s a quote from Bruce R. McConkie’s _Mormon Doctrine_: > [@](#): > > A _prophet_ is a person who knows by personal revelation from the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, “for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (Rev. 19:10; _Teachings_, pp. 119, 312.) Accordingly, every prophet bears record of Christ. “To him give all the prophets witness” (Acts 10:43; Jac. 4:4), and if a professing minister of salvation is not a witness for Christ, he is not a prophet. . . ." ---
**Author:** ![Snark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Snark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/57 "1999-12-16T20:24:00Z")
Adam and Eve were taught the gospel of Christ as well: > [@](#): > > **Moses 5:58-59** > > "58 And thus the Gospel began to be preached, from the beginning, being declared by holy angels sent forth from the presence of God, and by his own voice, and by the gift of the Holy Ghost. > > “59 And thus all things were confirmed unto Adam, by an holy ordinance, and the Gospel preached, and a decree sent forth, that it should be in the world, until the end thereof; and thus it was. Amen.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/58 "1999-12-16T21:17:00Z")
So _all_ the prophets, prophesied of Christ? Funny - with some of the OT prophets, the quality of the prophecy is rather vague. So was Nephi prophesying while in Jerusalem? He’s contemporaneous with Jeremiah, according to your dates, but not mentioned in the OT. Given that less than lasting impact even on Judaism, I’m trying to figure out how he could have influenced Mithraism before getting on the boat to the New World. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/59 "1999-12-16T21:56:00Z")
Well, if you’re gonna be an atheist, you might as well provide evidence against _two_ religions at once! Peruse this little website, if you will: [www.california.com/~rpcman/lucifer.htm](http://www.california.com/~rpcman/lucifer.htm) It reviews a book entitled _The Pilgrim’s Path_ by John J. Robinson. Lucifer, it turns out, is a Latin name. How did a Latin name turn up in an ancient Hebrew text? The scholars who wrote the KJV put it there. And they weren’t using the original Hebrew anyway! _They_ used a translation by St. Jerome, and Jerry made a boo-boo. He translated “Day star, Son of the Dawn” as “Lucifer,” because Jerry wrote in Latin and used a single word to replace a phrase with the same meaning. (Remember, before the printing press, each copy of the Bible was hand-printed, and scholars took every opportunity they could to shorten the text to ease this laborious work.) And who did “Day star, Son of the Dawn” refer to? The contemporary king of Babylon, Helal, son of Shahar. And he persecuted the children of Israel (during the Babylonian Captivity, I bet). Now here’s where it gets sticky for the Mormons: Joseph Smith used the name “Lucifer” in the Book of Mormon, even though he claimed to have translated it from the original Isaiah. Had he actually done that, he would have used the phrase “Day star, Son of the Dawn” instead of a _Latin_ word that didn’t appear in the _Hebrew_ text. The author of this web-site says Smith evidently worked from the KJV of the Bible. And the author of THIS web-site ( [www.jesus-is-lord.com/nivsatan.htm](http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/nivsatan.htm) )says the NIV is Satanic in origin because it translates both Lucifer and Jesus as “Morning Star,” so WATCH IT! I couldn’t read this whole site, I was laughing too hard. Just tryin’ to help. * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![Snark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Snark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 1999, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047/60 "1999-12-16T23:12:00Z")
RTFirefly wrote: > [@](#): > > So _all_ the prophets, prophesied of Christ? Funny - with some of the OT prophets, the quality of the prophecy is rather vague. Like the Book of Mormon says, there were many “plain and precious truths” removed from the Bible before it arrived in our hands, either by evil and designing men or by careless scribes. > [@](#): > > So was Nephi prophesying while in Jerusalem? He’s contemporaneous with Jeremiah, according to your dates, but not mentioned in the OT. Given that less than lasting impact even on Judaism, I’m trying to figure out how he could have influenced Mithraism before getting on the boat to the New World. I didn’t say **Nephi** influenced Mithraism. I just speculated that since Christianity has been around since Day One, Mithraism could have been derived from the original truths as taught to Adam and passed down to his children. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-devil-ever-in-hell/17047.md?page=4)