# Was the German word "Vater" ever pronounced with a v sound? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 4, 2024, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435 "2024-10-04T03:45:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Xocomil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xocomil/32/14927_2.png) [@Xocomil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xocomil)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/1 "2024-10-04T03:45:07Z")
In modern German a v is usually pronounced like an f. Looking through the academic literature (Wiktionary), Vater is spelled with a v beginning in Middle German. Does that reflect the pronunciation of the word or merely that the v → f sound change had already occurred and the spelling reflected that? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/2 "2024-10-04T04:04:46Z")
Probably the latter, [though](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_High_German#Consonants_2) it may have depended on dialect. [From Middle High German _vater_, from Old High German _fater_, from Proto-West Germanic \*_fader_, from Proto-Germanic \*_fadēr_, from Proto-Indo-European \*_ph₂tḗr_](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Vater#German). ---
**Author:** ![Xocomil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xocomil/32/14927_2.png) [@Xocomil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xocomil)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/3 "2024-10-04T05:10:48Z")
I guess it does depend on dialect. It’s safe to say it wasn’t widespread. Or at least we can say that if a v pronunciation was acceptable in a dialect, so was an f. It feels appropriate that the sentiment “a language is a dialect with an army” was first expressed in German. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/4 "2024-10-04T10:34:47Z")
There’s discussion of “v as [f]” here: > Not much in the way of citations from my first glance. I don’t get the impression many linguists feel confident about that one. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/5 "2024-10-04T14:21:44Z")
Countdown to this thread being highjacked by _Star Wars_ nerds…oops! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/6 "2024-10-04T14:40:38Z")
Yiddish, if you please. אַ שפּראַך איז אַ דיאַלעקט מיט אַן אַרמיי און פֿלאָט _A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un a flot_ c/o Max Weinrich. Yiddish has a friendliness and charm that German lacks. IMHO it’s important not to confuse the two. As somebody’s grandmother from the shtetl said, אַ האַלבער אמת איז אַ גאַנצער ליגן _A halber emes iz a gantser lign_ A half truth is a whole lie ---
**Author:** ![Quondam\_Mechanic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quondam_mechanic/32/3404_2.png) [@Quondam\_Mechanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quondam_Mechanic)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/7 "2024-10-04T14:54:20Z")
Kid joke: The answer is 9W. What’s the question? “Do you spell your name with a ‘V’, Herr Wagner?” I’ll let myself out. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/8 "2024-10-04T14:59:33Z")
> [@Xocomil](#): > > In modern German a v is usually pronounced like an f. I wouldn’t put it so generally. There are German words beginning with a V that are, in the standard pronunciation, pronounced with the English v sound. An example is the name (both first and last) Valentin, occurring in both Valentinstag (the day in February) and the name of 1920s/1930s comedian Karl Valentin, who, in turn, used it as the basis for a joke. ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/9 "2024-10-04T16:33:40Z")
St. Valentine was a Roman from today’s Italy, so I wouldn’t put his name as an example of a native German V-Word. There are a few words with inter-vocalic _v_ though (e.g. _Frevel_) that can be pronounced as both [f] and [v]. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/10 "2024-10-04T16:43:15Z")
Works best if you live in New York’s Hudson Valley (for others, it’s a random number-letter combo). ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/11 "2024-10-04T18:40:54Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I wouldn’t put it so generally. There are German words beginning with a V that are, in the standard pronunciation, pronounced with the English v sound. An example is the name (both first and last) Valentin, occurring in both Valentinstag (the day in February) and the name of 1920s/1930s comedian Karl Valentin, who, in turn, used it as the basis for a joke. > [@kk\_fusion](#): > > St. Valentine was a Roman from today’s Italy, so I wouldn’t put his name as an example of a native German V-Word. > > There are a few words with inter-vocalic _v_ though (e.g. _Frevel_) that can be pronounced as both [f] and [v]. A German word with a leading ‘V’ that’s pronounced like in English is “validieren/Validierung” (validate/validation). ETA: also “Variation” and “Verifikation/verifizieren”. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/12 "2024-10-04T20:17:31Z")
This reminds me of something I have wondered about. Is the German w (as in Herr Wagner) really just like the English v? Specifically, is it labio-dental or bilabial? The sounds are nearly identical, but not quite. Although I am no expert, the fact that the word for father is unvoiced in every IE language I am aware of, suggests it was that way originally and has never changed. I do suspect that the consonant was originally p (and not b). ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/13 "2024-10-04T20:34:06Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > This reminds me of something I have wondered about. Is the German w (as in Herr Wagner) really just like the English v? Specifically, is it labio-dental or bilabial? The sounds are nearly identical, but not quite. I had to look those words up, and I’d say that in German, the ‘w’ sound is rather labio-dental. It’s certainly _not_ the same as in English, the sounds in “Wasser” and “water” differ significantly, but I can’t describe it well because I lack the technical vocabulary. ETA: thinking more about it, I’m an idiot, I can explain it so easily: the German pronunciation of 'w" simply is just like the English ‘v’ like in “vast” or “visitor”. ETA2: rereading the post I replied to, I also see that I totally misread it. So never mind my drivel, but now it has been posted and I won’t delete it. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2024, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/14 "2024-10-04T21:31:02Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > St. Valentine was a Roman from today’s Italy Sure, that’s the etymology of the word, but that doesn’t mean it is - when used in German - exempt from the rules of German pronunciation. Latin names are traditionally pronounced according to German rules in German - see, for instance Caesar (_tsaysar_) and Cicero (_tsitsero_). ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/15 "2024-10-05T03:17:21Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Latin names are traditionally pronounced according to German rules in German - see, for instance Caesar (_tsaysar_) and Cicero (_tsitsero_). And those Latin names are pronounced according to English rules in English. Whereas, in Classical Latin, they’d be pronounced _kaisar_ and _kikero_. ---
**Author:** ![Xocomil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xocomil/32/14927_2.png) [@Xocomil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xocomil)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/16 "2024-10-05T03:18:21Z")
Indeed, thank you for the correction. Frankly that it was said in Yiddish about, as Weinreich put it, “the social plight of Yiddish” is far more appropriate. The [Wikipedia article on the phrase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy) provides an antecedent thought by George Puttenham: “After a speech is fully fashioned to the common understanding, and accepted by consent of a whole country and nation, it is called a language.” In the same work Puttenham elaborates on the procession of the “mother speach” of Britain from British ([Brittonic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittonic_languages)) to Anglo-Saxon to Norman English. I suppose he doesn’t get into the how of the change. I think Weinreich fleshed out the “accepted by consent” part. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/17 "2024-10-05T04:00:44Z")
Not really related, but the English cockney dialect used to mix up “w” and “v” sounds once upon a time (as immortalized by Sam Weller in “The Pickwick Papers”). > **[The Grammarphobia Blog: Does Sam Weller speak cockney?](https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2016/09/does-sam-weller-speak-cockney.html)** > > Why does the cockney Sam Weller in the Pickwick Papers pronounce “w" as "v," and "v" as "w"? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/18 "2024-10-05T04:31:14Z")
Then there’s Hawaiʻi / Havaiʻi (take your pick) ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/19 "2024-10-05T14:01:19Z")
The German science writer Willy Ley was once asked if he preferred to be called “Willy” or “Villy.” His response: > Villy oder Villy, it mages no difference. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2024, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435/20 "2024-10-06T00:42:02Z")
Thanks for that. I can stop wondering. The sound of vast is called a labiodental fricative, while the sound of water has no friction at all. The reason I wondered this is that in Japanese, there is a consonant series ha, he, hi, ho, fu (those vowels pronounced as they would be in most IE languages, not English). The point is that as you go through the series, the lips get closer and closer together until they touch, producing a bilabial fricative, which is different from the English f, a labiodental fricative. My Japansese friend (whose English is superb) told me that if he is speaking English he will say Fuji with the English sound, but speaking Japanese, he will use the Japanese one. Of course, these are unvoiced. But if voiced, the bilabial one really does sound much like the English v. Just for the record, bilabial means made with the two lips while labiodental means the lower lip against the upper teeth. Ignorance fought (and defeated). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-german-word-vater-ever-pronounced-with-a-v-sound/1008435.md?page=2)