# Was the McKinley assassination captured on film? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583 "2012-08-25T06:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/21 "2012-08-26T22:00:41Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You have been giving “evidence” of a possible conspiracy based on non-facts. How is that not a conspiracy “rant”? Because I did not even attempt to give evidence of a conspiracy. That’s how it’s not a conspiracy rant. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/22 "2012-08-26T22:41:34Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > Because I did not even attempt to give evidence of a conspiracy. That’s how it’s not a conspiracy rant. Not to mention just saying that something is _possible_ does not mean that you are claiming that is what actually happened, nor is it claiming that it is a conspiracy. Honestly, if it were true that someone filmed it, and then it was destroyed does not make it any sort of conspiracy. Historically stuff was destroyed all the freaking time, pictures, artwork [_cough_ [Bonfire of the Vanities](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonfire_of_the_Vanities) wasn’t just a movie and book about uptime corruption and murder _cough_] People destroyed archives all the time for various reasons. If there was a movie, and it was destroyed, as someone posted above it was to keep it from being exhibited for money, disrespecting a famous person. Not a big deal, honestly. It isn’t like it was a huge element of some defense lawyers presentation that somehow mysteriously vanished, freeing the lone assassin.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/23 "2012-08-31T20:44:47Z")
So, I picked up _Two Reels and a Crank_ from our circulation desk this afternoon. Here’s what it has to say on the subject of the McKinley Assassination: > [@](#): > > Here, again, was an intervening act of violence - the assassination of President McKinley. Our presence was a caprice of fate, for who can say what invisible force is at work in preparing the tragic pattern, placing this person here and that person there, giving one or more the power to retain his composure in the midst of disaster. … Yet in that hairbreadth of an instant a camera shutter clicked. For whatever purpose is served, adding pain to the present sorrow or the terror of memory, a photograph of an American president at the searing moment of the assassin’s bullet was given the world. > > **snip** > > My camera was several feet away, off to the side, but for the moment commanding an open view of the President. > > **snip** > > At the moment of gunfire, my camera was on Mr. McKinley’s face, but the frenzied crush that followed immediately prevented my obtaining any footage on the assassin, though I recorded considerable of the wild and angry attempts of the people to get their hands on Czolgosz. > > Our negative of the McKinley assassination deteriorated in the course of time, partly because we did not know how to storage it properly and partly because of the perishability of camera film of that day. I still have one section of the picture, four or five frames, showing Mr. President at the moment of uncomprehending terror-mouth wide and a fearsome look in his eyes. It has [this photo](http://flickr.com/gp/ellbeecee/v5Aj18) in the book, but to me, that looks like it may well be a closer view of the first image on [this page](http://public-domain-images.blogspot.com/2010/11/assassination-of-president-william.html), captioned there as the day before the assassination. So basically, _Two Reels and a Crank_ provides no proof one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/24 "2012-08-31T21:24:46Z")
Right. As I noted above, the assassination was indoors rather than in the open air. That first photo is obviously outdoors. And it obviously isn’t of the events of the actual assassination, which is correctly shown in the third image, the drawing, in the second link. McKinley was not in a grandstand but on the floor in a receiving line. (Well, semicorrectly. Notice that the artist wasn’t there, didn’t get McKinley’s clothing correct, as evidenced by the second image, and composed the events so that there wasn’t the crush of bodies. But at least it’s an indoor receiving line.) There’s no possible way to claim that first image as a photo of the assassination. And the carefully written glurge that the camera didn’t quite show the shot and the image deteriorated and they never let anybody know earlier and gosh darn it, they have no proof left, is proof enough of a tall tale for anybody with a particle of skepticism. Thanks for going to the lengths to post this, Lsura. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/25 "2012-08-31T23:18:10Z")
Thank you Lsura. Did you have any luck with Olson & Turner’s other reference? > [@](#): > > The common photographic techniques of criminal Investigation are generally called into use only after a crime has been committed. However, it occasionally happens that photographs of evidential value are taken by bystanders during the crime itself. One of the most striking examples of this is in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy. Strangely enough, perhaps the first recorded case of this type of “accidental” evidence was also in a presidenital assassination— that of President McKinley in 1901. Kinematographs from the original Edison Laboratory recorded the events at the Buffalo Exhibition. Investigators who studied the films of the President’s speech easily identified the assassin Czolgosz, as he made his way through the large crowd toward the President. Enlargements and drawings of the frames were studied in unsuccessful attempts to detect Czolgosz exchanging glances with some confederates **(1)**. Another motion picture camera was operating inside the Temple of Music and was just a few feet from McKinley at the exact time that Czolgosz came through the receiving line and fired the two assassination shots\*\*(2)\*\*. Reference #1 is listed as such: Gross, Hans. Criminal Investigation, 146. Richard Jackson (Ed.). Carswell Company, Ltd., Toronto, Canada (1962). ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/26 "2012-09-01T12:49:54Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > Thank you Lsura. > > Did you have any luck with Olson & Turner’s other reference? > > Reference #1 is listed as such: > > Gross, Hans. Criminal Investigation, 146. Richard Jackson (Ed.). Carswell Company, Ltd., Toronto, Canada (1962). That one’s not in my unversity system, so I put in an interlibrary loan request - but it takes longer for those to get here, and depends on where they’re coming from so I don’t have a time estimate. I could have it tuesday, or it could be 3 weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/27 "2012-09-11T13:33:21Z")
Ok, here we go. The second book came in yesterday and I picked up this morning. > [@](#): > > Take, for instance, the assassination of _President McKinley_. During that fatal visit of the murdered President to the Buffalo Exposition, the kinematograph was, of course, in constant activity. An exquisite series of pictures shows the President as he delivered his address and shook hands with the people who approached him. All his movements shortly before the moment when the fatal bullet struck him were fixed upon the films. When some days later these photographs were developed at the Edison Laboratory and examined by officers of the Criminal Investigation Department, a discovery was made of the greatest importance. Among the closely packed multitude surging around McKinley, on face and figure stood out with striking distinctness-it was Czolgosz. The first pictures of the series show the President as he steps on the platform and begins his speech. A man is next seen making his way with difficulty through the crowd. … Again he faces the camera … The features of all who turned round are clear enough to make them recognisable in the photograph. From these films drawings were taken for the secret police service, with the object of discovering by their help some clue to the confederates of the murderer. There are no citations in this book, so this is all there is to go on in it. (It does, however, have a delightful chapter titled “Slang Expressions Commonly Used by Thieves”) As a side note, in looking at the historical NYTimes that I have access to, Czolgosz was executed at October 29, 1901. That’s less than 60 days after the assassination. This seems amazingly fast to me, considering McKinley didn’t die until September 14th. But since Czolgosz admitted to the assassination, perhaps it’s not overwhelmingly fast? ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/28 "2012-09-11T13:52:33Z")
Lsura, thanks for all the time & effort you put into this. It is much appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/29 "2012-09-11T14:03:01Z")
The quote is a very clear example of presentism, where the author inadvertently assumes that people in the past did things they way we do them now. Filming was never a constant activity. Film was expensive (and probably more so back in 1896, adjusting for inflation). Film packs were short. Cameras themselves were expensive. Before TV it was unheard of to film events constantly (try to find any footage of an entire baseball game before 1950). You only shot important events. At a place like the Exposition, you would probably have no more than ten people with film cameras at the event, and they would all be saving their film to shoot McKinley doing something interesting like making a speech, not just shaking hands (which presidents did routinely back then). Even if you wanted footage of that, you’d take about 30-60 seconds of it. You would not shoot the entire event in the hopes something interesting happened (and you wouldn’t waste an entire reel on it). The assumptions in the statement show the author’s understanding of history is weak. ---
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/30 "2012-09-11T14:23:12Z")
I find it interesting that there is at least some reason to believe that a film of his assassination once existed. Maybe some posters could take a less patronizing tone when offering their opinions on what is and what is not possible. I’m not saying that the footage ever existed, but there is at least some reason to believe that it is possible that his final moments were captured. More thanks for LSura’s efforts in keeping to the spirit of this board. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/31 "2012-09-11T14:43:25Z")
[Citation from 1901](http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fo5cAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ylcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2072,1925357&dq=cinematograph+mckinley&hl=en). Some pics before and after, but none reference the actual event. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/32 "2012-09-11T15:09:41Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > [Citation from 1901](http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fo5cAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ylcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2072,1925357&dq=cinematograph+mckinley&hl=en). Some pics before and after, but none reference the actual event. Makes me wonder if copieis are available at the George Eastman museum in Rochester NY. Anybody checked with them yet? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/33 "2012-09-11T15:26:23Z")
> [@phreesh](#): > > I find it interesting that there is at least some reason to believe that a film of his assassination once existed. > > Maybe some posters could take a less patronizing tone when offering their opinions on what is and what is not possible. > > I’m not saying that the footage ever existed, but there is at least some reason to believe that it is possible that his final moments were captured. > > More thanks for LSura’s efforts in keeping to the spirit of this board. One more time. I’ve read a huge amount on the assassination and searched for film of the Fair. My opinion is that no such film ever existed and I’ve explained in detail why I’ve come to that opinion. I would very interested to be proved wrong. But I say there is not “some reason” to think I am wrong but “no reason”. I’m sorry you think it is patronizing to tell people who are offering opinions based on no knowledge or research of any kind that those opinions are valueless, but that’s kinda the whole point of this board. ---
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/34 "2012-09-11T15:42:02Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > One more time. I’ve read a huge amount on the assassination and searched for film of the Fair. My opinion is that no such film ever existed and I’ve explained in detail why I’ve come to that opinion. I would very interested to be proved wrong. But I say there is not “some reason” to think I am wrong but “no reason”. I’m sorry you think it is patronizing to tell people who are offering opinions based on no knowledge or research of any kind that those opinions are valueless, but that’s kinda the whole point of this board. Maybe I’m imagining things, but the sense I got from your (admittedly well-reasoned and well-cited) posts was basically, “You’re an idiot to tell people that any footage of his actual death exists.” And then a source is found from a person who was alive at the time and had access to the filming technology of the time who stated they filmed his actual death. I would hope that might poke holes in the idea that it’s idiotiic to think that footage may have been made. Again, perhaps you were just forcefully making your point and you never felt that there was no chance that a film could have been made and I apologize if that was your intention. I think it is in keeping with the spirit of the board to be open to new ideas if they have merit. I feel that LSura’s cite gives the argument that some footage may exist merit. I share your opinion that such footage does not exist, but I also acknowledge that LSura’s cite gives creedance that maybe there is some unfound footage out there. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/35 "2012-09-11T16:44:42Z")
> [@Lsura](#): > > As a side note, in looking at the historical NYTimes that I have access to, Czolgosz was executed at October 29, 1901. That’s less than 60 days after the assassination. This seems amazingly fast to me, considering McKinley didn’t die until September 14th. But since Czolgosz admitted to the assassination, perhaps it’s not overwhelmingly fast? I missed this before. It’s in line with other major murder trials of the period. There were no long delays to amass evidence before trial, no appeals to the Supreme Court. Tim Weiner’s [Enemies: A History of the FBI](http://www.amazon.com/Enemies-History-FBI-Tim-Weiner/dp/1400067480/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347380277&sr=8-1&keywords=enemies+tim+weiner) mentions several quick executions. I thought remembered he said that one took place in eight days, the fastest ever but I can’t find that in a quick search. George Dasch, a Nazi saboteur, was convicted by a military commission and executed five days later, according to p113. But this was 1942, during the war. > [@phreesh](#): > > Maybe I’m imagining things, but the sense I got from your (admittedly well-reasoned and well-cited) posts was basically, “You’re an idiot to tell people that any footage of his actual death exists.” > > And then a source is found from a person who was alive at the time and had access to the filming technology of the time who stated they filmed his actual death. > > I would hope that might poke holes in the idea that it’s idiotiic to think that footage may have been made. > > Again, perhaps you were just forcefully making your point and you never felt that there was no chance that a film could have been made and I apologize if that was your intention. I think it is in keeping with the spirit of the board to be open to new ideas if they have merit. I feel that LSura’s cite gives the argument that some footage may exist merit. I share your opinion that such footage does not exist, but I also acknowledge that LSura’s cite gives creedance that maybe there is some unfound footage out there. I got my back up at patronizing, so let me give a closer analysis to that passage by Gross. What I find most important is that it gets the setting entirely wrong. There was no speech. There wasn’t a crowd in the way they appear in the pictures of his outdoor speech of the day before. In [Murdering McKinley](http://www.amazon.com/Murdering-McKinley-Theodore-Roosevelts-America/dp/0809016389/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347380632&sr=1-1&keywords=murdering+mckinley#reader_0809016389), Rauchway sets the stage like this (p3): > [@](#): > > At or about four o’clock in the afternoon of September 6, 1901, President William McKinley arrived in an open carriage outside the Temple of Music at the Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo, New York. He walked inside and to the head of a receiving line, where he began shaking the hands of Exposition visitors. His handlers expected him to remain only a short while , and about ten minutes later, one of them pulled out a pocket watch and made a show of looking at the time, signaled the Secret Service that the appearance was coming to an end. Just then, the man next in line stepped forward and raised his right hand. What Gross is describing is the well-known scene at McKinley’s previous day speech. As I pointed out earlier, most casual commenters on the assassination confuse the two. But on Sept. 6, there was no speech, no way for a man to have slowly worked through the crowd. McKinley walked indoors - and we have no indoor casual film of the Exposition - went to the head of an orderly line and began shaking hands. If a real film existed of the entire sequence it would have shown this. Gross’ account is dismissible at a glance. I have to say I’m not surprised. My opinion of Gross - and I’m well aware that this is on the flimsiest possible basis - is that he was a quack. That’s because every mystery writer of 30s used his book to concoct spectacularly ridiculous and improbable crimes and then say, well Hans Gross mentions a case just like this in 1892 in Antarctica. Or, Hans Gross says that a poison like this one can make a full-grown man convulse sufficiently to jump up from the road through a third-floor window and thus present the appearance of an impossible murder. Blather. When I saw the reference to Gross I leapt myself - to the conclusion that he would be wrong. Fortunately for my ego I was correct about this. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583/36 "2012-09-11T18:59:31Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The quote is a very clear example of presentism, where the author inadvertently assumes that people in the past did things they way we do them now. Well, Hans Gross died in 1915. The quote may be incorrect, but I think we can find him not-guilty of presentism. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-mckinley-assassination-captured-on-film/632583.md?page=1)