# Was the Pennsylvanian Treasurer R. Budd Dwyer in fact guilty? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 12, 2017, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267 "2017-12-12T05:55:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kenz47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/34f0e0/32.png) [@kenz47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenz47)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/1 "2017-12-12T05:55:16Z")
There has been a recent documentary about Dwyer: “Honest Man: The life of R. Budd Dwyer” which purports Dwyer to be innocent of his charges (Dwyer was convicted in 1986 of 11 counts of conspiracy, mail fraud, perjury and interstate transportation in aid of racketeering). I don’t find the documentary convincing. Seems to be a case of “hey Dwyer was a nice guy, hence he wouldn’t break the law”; there is nothing really substantial in the documentary that points to Dwyer’s innocence. At one point the documentary looks a William T. Smith. Smith’s testimony in Dwyer’s trial played a substantial role in convicting Dwyer. In this documentary Smith recants his testimony. However, Smith is a notable liar… recanting testimony in front of a camera for a documentary (that is, with impunity) really doesn’t mean much. What do others think? ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/2 "2017-12-12T07:38:33Z")
Well, HE certainly thought so… ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/3 "2017-12-12T07:40:16Z")
**Moderator Action** I don’t know if this has a factual answer. Since the OP calls for opinions (what do others think), let’s move this to IMHO (from GQ). ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/4 "2017-12-12T07:50:43Z")
By the way, here’s a previous thread on the topic: > **[Was Budd Dwyer factually guilty, innocent, or what?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=662220)** > > What’s the actual reality behind the charges and law that made him kill himself? I have a sense from overseas, unfairly aquired or not, that high profile American trials are jokes. Therefore I can see him either being not guilty of everything (or... I lived in WV not far from Pittsburgh at the time, so we mostly watched the Pittsburgh TV channels. Budd Dwyer was in the news, but it wasn’t exactly a huge story until his suicide. Still, it seemed that they were getting closer and closer to proving his guilt, and that was when he killed himself. I had the impression at the time that he was definitely guilty. I’ve read quite a bit about him since then, and my impression is still that he was guilty. ---
**Author:** ![kenz47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/34f0e0/32.png) [@kenz47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenz47)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/5 "2017-12-12T08:10:28Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > By the way, here’s a previous thread on the topic: > [Was Budd Dwyer factually guilty, innocent, or what? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=662220) > > I lived in WV not far from Pittsburgh at the time, so we mostly watched the Pittsburgh TV channels. Budd Dwyer was in the news, but it wasn’t exactly a huge story until his suicide. Still, it seemed that they were getting closer and closer to proving his guilt, and that was when he killed himself. I had the impression at the time that he was definitely guilty. > > I’ve read quite a bit about him since then, and my impression is still that he was guilty. Thanks, I read that post. Very good answer by Noel Prosequi, in particular. I tend to agree with you. After the documentary “Honest Man” was released, it spawned a lot of comments of the type “Dwyer is innocent- he was framed”, he was set-up", “Dwyer’s now been exonerated” etc (most of these comments aren’t on the most authoritative sites by any means). However, looking at the totality of evidence available, there is little doubt that he was guilty. Even his suicide was indicative of his tendency to manipulate the system for his own gain- by committing suicide he (his family) acquired a pension that, upon his conviction, he was not entitled to. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/6 "2017-12-12T13:35:38Z")
I remember seeing his suicide on TV, and being shocked that it was shown. Thinking back, I feel like I was a little kid at the time. Doing the math, I was a month short of my 29th birthday. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/7 "2017-12-12T16:39:43Z")
I remember seeing it as well. In detail at first and then edited later. When the press conference was first announced I expected it to be him taking some sort of “guilty-falling-on-my-sword” thing because I felt at the time (and still do) he was guilty on some level if not each specific charge. That he swallowed his gun on TV surprised the crap out of me. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/8 "2017-12-12T17:11:03Z")
If he wasn’t guilty, then his defense strategy was…counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/9 "2017-12-13T00:19:08Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > If he wasn’t guilty, then his defense strategy was…counterproductive. Man, it was a nice shot though. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/10 "2017-12-13T00:35:51Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Man, it was a nice shot though. That’s why I say hey man, nice shot. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/11 "2017-12-13T01:13:03Z")
He saved some face. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/12 "2017-12-13T01:22:57Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I remember seeing his suicide on TV, and being shocked that it was shown. Thinking back, I feel like I was a little kid at the time. Doing the math, I was a month short of my 29th birthday. > [@kopek](#): > > I remember seeing it as well. In detail at first and then edited later. When the press conference was first announced I expected it to be him taking some sort of “guilty-falling-on-my-sword” thing because I felt at the time (and still do) he was guilty on some level if not each specific charge. That he swallowed his gun on TV surprised the crap out of me. You didn’t see the suicide **live** on tv. We’ve done this one to death. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/13 "2017-12-13T12:04:14Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > He saved some face. Not much, maybe some around his left eye. > [@samclem](#): > > You didn’t see the suicide **live** on tv. We’ve done this one to death. I was reading the Berenstein Bears, glanced up, and saw . . . ETA: did I say “live”? It was shown on tv, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/14 "2017-12-13T15:56:34Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > ETA: did I say “live”? It was shown on tv, wasn’t it? Indeed it was. Some stations chose to air the entire thing in all its gory detail as early as noon newscast, barely an hour after it happened. And lots of kids were home from school to watch it because of a snowstorm. Gotta love TV news. [http://articles.mcall.com/1987-06-21/news/2571067\_1\_treasurer-budd-dwyer-suicide-abc-affiliate](http://articles.mcall.com/1987-06-21/news/2571067_1_treasurer-budd-dwyer-suicide-abc-affiliate) ---
**Author:** ![kenz47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/34f0e0/32.png) [@kenz47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenz47)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/15 "2017-12-14T14:06:15Z")
Everyone has mentioned his ridicuolous stunt of killing himself in public, so I’ll add my two cents. Dwyer killed himself chiefly to allow his family to get his pension. There were two reasons why he did it in public: 1. Dwyer’s crimes were no doubt common, and many did evade punishment for such crimes. He felt it unjust that he was convicted whilst others were getting away with such crimes (or perhaps crimes of a greater magnitude). Somehow he believed that there was a conspiracy, even though there was none. Additionally, the media, he thought, were out to get him (this perhaps was true). His suicide was an aggressive act towards them intended to cause feelings of guilt. 2. Dwyer knew that if he committed suicide in a private area he would definitely look guilty. So, in order to offset the impression that he was guilty, he committed suicide not in private, but in public, with the hopes that it would _then_ appear that he actually _was_ innocent. He further tried to cover up this ploy by writing his long winded diatribe about political corruption, urging people to look at the justice system etc. No doubt some of what he stated was true, and he did believe it, yet I think most of his talk about “political corruption” “let’s fix the justice system” was intended to cover up the fact that a guilty man was committing suicide in public. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/16 "2017-12-14T14:38:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Man, it was a nice shot though. > [@Isamu](#): > > He saved some face. > [@kayaker](#): > > ETA: did I say “live”? It was shown on tv, wasn’t it? So I guess you could say the footage was … 🆒 Filtered. YEEEAAAAHHHHH! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/17 "2017-12-14T14:51:48Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > So I guess you could say the footage was … > > 🆒 > > Filtered. YEEEAAAAHHHHH! Well played. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/18 "2017-12-14T15:38:41Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > You didn’t see the suicide **live** on tv. We’ve done this one to death. Neither person you quoted claimed to see the suicide **live** , so I’m not really sure what point is of this comment. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/19 "2017-12-14T16:50:29Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > You didn’t see the suicide **live** on tv. We’ve done this one to death. The first reports on one of the stations (I would think 2 or 11 based on my viewing habits at the time) basically showed the full suicide. After the complaints (I assume) they edited the event to just after he pulled the gun from the envelope and started his last statements. > [@Pantastic](#): > > Neither person you quoted claimed to see the suicide **live** , so I’m not really sure what point is of this comment. Clarity; I know **Sam** from real life and its just his habit. No offense taken on my part at least. This is one of those events reported after the fact that memories (as we age) want to make live even though they were (to paraphrase an old commercial) Memorex. 😉 Now had PCN covered such things at the time all bets would be off. But at the time all we got was Breaking News after the shot. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267/20 "2017-12-14T16:52:08Z")
It’s hard to fathom a network making the call to televise that. I’m not sure it would fly today. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pennsylvanian-treasurer-r-budd-dwyer-in-fact-guilty/804267.md?page=2)