# Was the perfect car outlawed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 25, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043 "2011-11-25T14:26:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/81 "2011-12-01T01:28:04Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > If I’m guessing right, he thought he could spend energy to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen, which he would then burn, to get water and energy back. > > It ‘works’ if you ignore the obvious flaw that you never get as much energy back as you put in to begin with. You’re probably right about what he thought. The way I like to explain the fallacy is that it’s like hoping to make a profit by converting dollars to pennies, thenrolling the pennies and turning them in for dollars. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/82 "2011-12-01T01:28:15Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > He thought (Incorrectly) that a car’s alternator put out its maximum rated output all the time (it doesn’t, something anyone with 15 minutes of electrical instruction would know) well, in fairness, I could see how a _n00b_ would get that impression given the alternator output **voltage** remains a fairly constant ~14 VDC. but as you stated in your earlier post, someone with an EE degree should know that the alternator’s **current** (thus power) output is based on demand. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/83 "2011-12-01T02:11:22Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > They are, and they did, [meet the 2012 T6 Ranger](http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/09/first-drive-2012-ford-ranger.html). They just aren’t going to sell it in North America. Most likely since the continued evolution of the model and growth in size and payload capacity has completely blurred the line between it and the F-150. > > My 2004 Ranger with the 4.0 V6 while rated 17 mpg combined has a lifetime average for me just shy of 19 mpg (this with the lowest available axle ratio). 20 to 21 on the freeway is the norm and it is not unheard of for me to get 23 in favorable conditions. I am very sad that they are not continuing the model. What Ford is doing with the 2012 T6 Ranger doesn’t surprise me. Vehicles like that are very popular in Southeast Asia. In Laos, in particular, for some reason the Toyota HiLux is THE vehicle of choice. Everyone else is competing with them for the compact, extended cab half-pickup market. People there love them. I guess there just isn’t the market in North America. And yes, my 2000 Ranger got about 19-20 mpg and it was the 4x4 Off-Road with the low ratio rear axle. Sad to see Ford give up on the Ranger in North America. I wish they would have committed the resources to take it to the next level. Also, it fits much better in the average garage than the F-150. Sorry if this is a hijack. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/84 "2011-12-01T02:22:56Z")
Diesel VWs get mpg in the high forties on the highway. Hybrid Toyotas get better mileage than non-hybrid ones. Why no diesel hybrids? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/85 "2011-12-01T02:42:09Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > Diesel VWs get mpg in the high forties on the highway. Hybrid Toyotas get better mileage than non-hybrid ones. > > Why no diesel hybrids? you want to pay $40,000 for something the size of a Corolla? ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/86 "2011-12-01T02:47:17Z")
A diesel hybrid shouldn’t cost $40,000. Maybe $30,000 at first with prices going down some if they were to sell as well as the gas hybrids have done. I think there’s a segment out there that would pay that for 60 - 70 mpg. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/87 "2011-12-01T03:35:16Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > He thought (Incorrectly) that a car’s alternator put out its maximum rated output all the time (it doesn’t, something anyone with 15 minutes of electrical instruction would know) > If his cockamamie idea had been correct \*\*he could use the excess power from the alternator to break water into H2 and O2. \*\* > . Thanks for all the responses, I get it, now. And with the bolded part in this last post, it even begins to make sense. If you’re assuming that there’s a signifant waste to begin with, it’s logical to think you’re going to improve performances by using this wasted energy. So, the issue isn’t a lack of understanding of basic thermodynamics, but a lack of knowledge about car engines. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/88 "2011-12-01T03:48:05Z")
Actually about DC electrical systems and batteries. Something I would think an electrical [del]engineer[/del] ENGINEER!!! (as he kept reminding me) might have a clue about. ---
**Author:** ![cplif](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/48db29/32.png) [@cplif](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cplif)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/89 "2011-12-01T16:29:24Z")
It would be a lot of fun lugging the water to electrolyse, though maybe some sort of rain sail would do the trick, better still if it would collect rain on one side and gain wind push at the same time… I do beleive though that rising gas prices will push human ingeneuity to new limits, we’ve clearly seen it in the semiconductor industry, 20 yrs of hearing about impossibles (etching width, heat, electron leakage, ad nauseum) have left me constantly amazed at the results of hard work and human endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/90 "2011-12-01T18:57:38Z")
> [@cplif](#): > > It would be a lot of fun lugging the water to electrolyse, though maybe some sort of rain sail would do the trick, better still if it would collect rain on one side and gain wind push at the same time… Nah. Just run the car’s exhaust through a condenser, and gather the water that collects there. You can re-use the same water over and over again! ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/91 "2011-12-02T03:04:21Z")
You generate about the same amount of water as gas you burn. So if you are getting 20MPG you would only have about 6 oz of water per mile. Probably not the enough for the Brown’s gas miracle to occur. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/92 "2011-12-02T04:30:37Z")
I do want to point out that Saturn made a good number of cars out of plastic- which never rusted, and small “fender benders” just bounced. But plastic wasn’t sexy. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/93 "2011-12-02T18:48:41Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Actually about DC electrical systems and batteries. Something I would think an electrical [del]engineer[/del] ENGINEER!!! (as he kept reminding me) might have a clue about. You’ve gone out of your way to mock engineers who don’t know what they’re talking about at least twice now. Not all of us are created equal. ~ A basic test to see if someone understands demand versus capacity is something I do in class: “Say you take a blown 454 Corvette and put the rear end up on jackstands. Then you get in the car and rev the engine up and hold it at 5,000 rpm. Roughly how much horsepower will you be putting out?” Pretty much 95% of any audience will guess something like “500” or higher, when the real answer is probably closer to 5-10. And even after you explain it to them, more than half the audience won’t believe a word you say. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/94 "2011-12-02T19:22:05Z")
Una, if you explain it to me I promise to believe you. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/95 "2011-12-02T19:51:41Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > You’ve gone out of your way to mock engineers who don’t know what they’re talking about at least twice now. Not all of us are created equal. > > ~ > > A basic test to see if someone understands demand versus capacity is something I do in class: “Say you take a blown 454 Corvette and put the rear end up on jackstands. Then you get in the car and rev the engine up and hold it at 5,000 rpm. Roughly how much horsepower will you be putting out?” Pretty much 95% of any audience will guess something like “500” or higher, when the real answer is probably closer to 5-10. > > And even after you explain it to them, more than half the audience won’t believe a word you say. :smack: I don’t think **Rick** ’s mocking engineers, but people who have to keep throwing their supposed credentials around and then fail on fairly basic stuff. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/96 "2011-12-02T20:36:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But plastic wasn’t sexy. You haven’t seen this one dress of mine… Ok but on topic, what is the highest MPG of any normal, available car right now? (Not talking about concept cars or track cars–speaking strictly of commercially available cars.) My mom gets good mileage on her Prius, but she spent a lot of money on that Prius and I’m not convinced that the savings over the life of the car will actually match the premium she paid for the car itself. Is it? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/97 "2011-12-02T21:00:41Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > Ok but on topic, what is the highest MPG of any normal, available car right now? (Not talking about concept cars or track cars–speaking strictly of commercially available cars.) Of cars $20k and under, probably a low end Honda Insight with a EPA combined mpg in the low 40’s. The [search tool](http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/powerSearch.jsp) at [fueleconomy.gov](http://fueleconomy.gov) is pretty handy. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/98 "2011-12-02T21:16:58Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Of cars $20k and under, probably a low end Honda Insight with a EPA combined mpg in the low 40’s. The [search tool](http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/powerSearch.jsp) at [fueleconomy.gov](http://fueleconomy.gov) is pretty handy. Cool, thanks for the handy link. I think I’ve got several more years left in my 2000 Camry, but when I buy a new car eventually, fuel economy is going to be one of my biggest factors. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/99 "2011-12-02T22:12:53Z")
Most of the recent batch of compacts and subcompacts get near 40 highway mpg, and somewhere north of 30 city mpg. Again, this isn’t as much as older subcompacts, but the new ones are tremendously more powerful, safer, more reliable, well built, and full of creature comforts. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043/100 "2011-12-02T22:16:57Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Most of the recent batch of compacts and subcompacts get near 40 highway mpg, and somewhere north of 30 city mpg. Again, this isn’t as much as older subcompacts, but the new ones are tremendously more powerful, safer, more reliable, well built, and full of creature comforts. Makes me jealous. My Camry gets like 25-30, with the 25 being more common (in-town traffic driving). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-perfect-car-outlawed/604043.md?page=6)