# Was the pre-British Indian caste system influenced by skin color? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 20, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162 "2008-07-20T16:26:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/1 "2008-07-20T16:26:04Z")
I’m watching John McLaughlin on PBS in a program about racial discrimination among American blacks (the brown paper bag and the ruler) and McLaughlin stated that in India, the Brahmin are lighter-toned than the Untouchables. His guest immediately mentioned the British Colonial influence and the conversation largely moved on. I don’t think they’ll go back to the subject again so I’ll ask the Dope: Was the **pre-British** Indian caste system influenced by skin color? We’re all told that the _real_ Aryans who invaded India and established the caste system were _not_ white Europeans, but did they establish a color-influenced system? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/2 "2008-07-20T16:58:25Z")
I know this isn’t quite what you’re asking, but I’d note that the lowest-caste people spend a lot of time outside, while the highest castes were able to be out of the worst of the sun. So even if the starting point were the same, the untouchables would appear darker than the brahmins. Whether that’s the the root of the explanation or only a small part of it, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/3 "2008-07-20T17:07:28Z")
I know the OP is addressing pre-British but even ppost British it’s still a big deal, and many Indian marriages will be made or broken by the parents if the other party is (in their opinion) too dark. Re the OP see also[Race and Racism in India](http://science.jrank.org/pages/10957/Race-Racism-in-Asia-Race-Racism-in-India.html) > [@](#): > > Hints of the caste system can be seen in the Rig Veda written in the late second millennium B.C.E. It was clearly in place by the time of the later Vedic texts (c. 1000–500 B.C.E.). These Sanskrit texts are generally seen as products of an Aryan migration or invasion, and they teach a sacrificial religious system known as Brahmanism or Vedism, which would in later centuries develop into Hinduism. Deeply concerned with issues of purity and pollution, the Vedic texts divided people into different groupings called varnas (“colors”) at the top of which was a priestly caste called to set themselves apart from the others. In the early Hindu period (c. 300 B.C.E.–500 C.E.), the Sanskrit epics the Ramayana and the Mahabharata were incorporated into the tradition. These texts laid out four hierarchical varna classes (Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra), which eventually became the larger groupings, which would encompass caste (jati) clusters. Although Hinduism does include elements of non-Vedic and non-Aryan sources, Vedic literature and Aryan civilization is seen as being at the core of the tradition. > > Racial identities were fundamental to the development and continuation of this system. Those claiming Aryan heritage clearly stood to benefit. Orthodox scholarship interpreted the role of the Aryan in Indian society as the importer of high civilization, bringing Sanskrit, the Vedic Hindu texts, and the caste system. They constituted the Brahmanic class. The system was racial also in the sense that castes were based upon lineage. The family to which one was born usually determined one’s social status for life with discriminatory social, political, and economical impact on the lower castes. It limited the range of occupations lower caste members could fill, kept them from gaining positions of power, and forced them to practice social rituals that demeaned and oppressed them. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/4 "2008-07-20T17:34:03Z")
[QUOTE=Derleth] The brown paper bag and the ruler [/QUOTE] Sorry for the ignorance–what’s that? ETA Sorry, didn’t realize it would be so Googleable: From [The Urban Dictionary](http://www.urbandictionary.com/) > [@brown paper bag test](#): > > An actual test, along with the so-called ruler test in common use in the the early 1900s among upper class Black American societies and families to determine if a Black person was sufficiently white to gain admittance or acceptance. If your skin was darker than a brown paper bag, you did not merit inclusion. Thousands of Black institutions including the nation’s most eminent Black fraternity – Phi Alpha Phi, Howard Univiersity, and numerous church and civic groups all practiced this discriminiation. The practice has 19th Century antecedants with the Blue Blood Society and has not totally died out. > [@ruler test](#): > > A test used in 19th middle and upper class Black communities to decide of a black American was sufficiently white enough to warrant inclusion. The idea is that your hair should be as straight as a ruler. Today the practice is not rightly condemned as “colorism” but is not altogether abandoned. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/5 "2008-07-20T18:26:12Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] I know this isn’t quite what you’re asking, but I’d note that the lowest-caste people spend a lot of time outside, while the highest castes were able to be out of the worst of the sun. [/QUOTE] That’s probably most of it, now that I think of it. It explains why the rich to this day are called ‘blue bloods’ (blue veins can be seen through pale skin never exposed to much sun). **astro** : I will look at that. Thanks. **Rhythmdvl** : I thought those terms were closer to common knowledge. But, as you say, they are very googlable. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/6 "2008-07-20T18:51:27Z")
[QUOTE=Derleth] . **Rhythmdvl** : I thought those terms were closer to common knowledge. But, as you say, they are very googlable. [/QUOTE] There are people (like me) posting from foreign countries, hence who never heard of the brown paper bag and the ruler (the first one I could guess the relevance of, but the second one puzzled me). However, they’re easily googlable, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![andy77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/958977/32.png) [@andy77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andy77494)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/7 "2008-07-21T00:20:12Z")
People in India vary in color due to where in India they are from and how exposed the sun they are. People from the north - Punjab, Uttarpradesh etc. are whiter in general than people from the south. That said there are whiter and darker people in all parts of India. If you look at Indian Mythology, Krishna was dark but not of the lower caste. I grew up in India, and think color had very little to do with caste. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/8 "2008-07-21T19:26:26Z")
[a bit off topic but not really]This guy thinks fair-skinned preference is indigenous to certain African tribes: > **[Skin-color preference in sub-Saharan Africa](http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2006/12/skin-color-preference-in-sub-saharan.html)** > > It has long been noted that black men prefer lighter-skinned women, both in sub-Saharan Africa and in the black diaspora. For the United Sta... [abotbnr] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/9 "2008-07-21T21:54:20Z")
[QUOTE=andy77494] If you look at Indian Mythology, Krishna was dark but not of the lower caste. I grew up in India, and think color had very little to do with caste. [/QUOTE] Actually, Krishna is traditionally described as being from the low cowherder caste. He is often pointed to as the exceptional low-caste hero of Indian mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/10 "2008-07-21T22:03:58Z")
The first time, years ago, that I saw a movie theater showing Bollywood fare, I was dumbfounded as to where the movies were from because the actors were so . . . white-looking. I had known a lot of Indians in school, etc., but none who looked that Caucasian-ish (kind of like Spaniards or something). So I assume it can be taken as read that at least today, there is a fairly prevalent preference for looking “less dark.” (Cf. East Asian women with their fondness for parasols and “skin whitening” cream). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/11 "2008-07-21T22:22:27Z")
There is a pretty diverse range of skin colors in India. Very generally speaking, the lightest are in the north (the stereotypical blue-eyed Kashmiri) and the darkest are in the south. Skin color is a huge issue in Indian culture, especially for girls. For a girl to be considered marriageable she must be “fair.” In discussing a person’s physical beauty, the _very first_ issue that is addressed is whether she is “fair” or “dark.” ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/12 "2008-07-22T01:18:04Z")
According to Larry Gonick’s _[The Cartoon History of the Universe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartoon_History_of_the_Universe)_ (volume 1), where I get all my ancient history knowledge 🙂 , at some rather early point the original (quite dark) inhabitants of India were conquered by (medium-brown) Eurasian nomads who set themselves up as the ruling class and kept the aboriginal population strictly subjugated, so the association “color = social standing” dates at least that far back. JRB ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/13 "2008-07-22T01:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > A test used in 19th middle and upper class Black communities to decide of a black American was sufficiently white enough to warrant inclusion. The idea is that your hair should be as straight as a ruler. Today the practice is not rightly condemned as “colorism” but is not altogether abandoned. What? In order for your hair to be as straight as a ruler, it would have to be not even the slightest bit curly - it would have to be Japanese-girl type straight, or as close to that as you could get without being Japanese. How many black people had hair that was naturally completely straight? Five of them? ---
**Author:** ![andy77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/958977/32.png) [@andy77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andy77494)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/14 "2008-07-22T15:33:20Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Actually, Krishna is traditionally described as being from the low cowherder caste. He is often pointed to as the exceptional low-caste hero of Indian mythology. [/QUOTE] I do not agree with that statement since Krishna is traditionally described both as from the cow herding caste as well as the warrior caste. [cite](http://www.themystica.com/mythical-folk/articles/krishna.html) Anyways, what I wanted to point out was that darker color was not the cause of a lower caste. Sure, there can be some correlation between darker color and lower caste - but these correlations are not the cause. There’s the goddess Kali too - who is black. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-pre-british-indian-caste-system-influenced-by-skin-color/457162/15 "2008-07-22T16:16:18Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] What? In order for your hair to be as straight as a ruler, it would have to be not even the slightest bit curly - it would have to be Japanese-girl type straight, or as close to that as you could get without being Japanese. How many black people had hair that was naturally completely straight? Five of them? [/QUOTE] Right, and that’s why hair straightening procedures have been a big moneymaker in black communities since the Victorian era. Not straightening the frizz was a sign that you were too poor, too slovenly, or too radical for inclusion in the “right set”. JRB