Was the U.S.'s involvement in Vietnam really justified?

[Dev_Null]

*Originally posted by Dev Null *

*Originally posted by Svinlesha *
There is an intrinsic error in mistaking governmental policy with a country and its people. *

So true.

**

s/Svinlesha/Dr_Paprika

Sorry 'bout that.

[RickJay]

*Originally posted by Svinlesha *
**
Man, dat be so fucked up so many different ways…

Yeah, of course you’re right, Rick, when you point out that the Nicaraguan gov’t. is freely elected, but, uh, I didn’t mean that the current Nicaraguan gov’t. is right-wing (although it might be; I don’t keep up with Latin American politics all that much anymore). When I wrote that the US “fueled a right-wing takeover,” I was referring specifically to the Reagan administration’s support of the Contras – you remember, that fun-lovin’ bunch of child-rapin’, nun-killin’, coke-snortin’ “freedom fighters”. However, as I’m sure as you’re aware, the Contras lost; after which the brutal left-wing dictator Daniel Ortéga turned around and set up a free election,**

So where was the takeover? You seemed to imply there was an actual right-wing takeover of the country, which I guess was my misunderstanding. I would point out that it would be folly to assume that the Contras were completely different people than the ones who supported Violeta Chamorro (although they did have their own candidate.) We all know about the, uh, unusual behaviour of the Contras (it went well beyond mere right-wingism and straight into farcical lunacy at times.)

But let’s be honest; you’re kidding yourself if you think Daniel Ortega decided to hold an election in 1990 out of the goodness of his heart. Ortega had been dictator of the country for eleven years at that point. I feel it’s safe to say that the end of the cold war (and Soviet aid) as well as sheer fatigue from years of civil war, as well as international pressure, were the main reasons for his sudden change of heart after eleven years.

Avumede:

The Sandanistas were elected in a free and fair election.

Could you provide some evidence of this free and fair election? The Sandinistas took over in a (relatively bloodless) military coup and never held a real election I can find a reference to. The creation of a National Assembly in 1985 - six years after they took power - doesn’t seem to have occurred through open elections.

[QUOTE]
Some interesting stuff Chomsky has to say about the election, notably that the elections may have turned out the way they did based on US threats:

It was apparent from the outset that the U.S. would never tolerate free and fair elections. The point was underscored by repeated White House statements that the terror and economic war would continue unless a “free choice” met the conditions of the Enforcer. It was made official in early November when the White House announced that the embargo would be lifted if the population followed U.S. orders.

[QUOTE]

With all due respect to Prof. Chomsky, this sounds like about one twentieth of the story, and some references to actual evidence would be nice.

I DO know that the election in 1990 was signed off on by international (not just U.S.) observers, and that the 1996 election, which was far less contested from the USA’s point of view, saw the Sandinistas lose again. I also know Chamorro was formerly part of Ortega’s government and wasn’t the preferred Contra candidate, though of course their choice might have had no chance in the election anyway; IIRC, Ortega and Chamorro were the only serious contenders.

I’m certainly not going to suggest the U.S. isn’t responsible for a plethora of dirty tricks in Nicaragua and Central America in general, but to suggest that Violeta Chamorro wasn’t a legitimate President or that the Sandinistas weren’t dictators or that all this amounts to a “Right-wing takeover” is just nuts. Chamorro was a MODERATE, not a right-winger by any stretch of the imagination, and her successor seems to be a moderate, too. Both the 1990 and 1996 election were remarkably open and fair given the circumstances of the time, and I’d argue it’s safe to say the will of the people was expressed.

[Avumede]

*Originally posted by RickJay *
Could you provide some evidence of this free and fair election? The Sandinistas took over in a (relatively bloodless) military coup and never held a real election I can find a reference to.

Ortega was elected by a wide margin in 1984. A search for Nicaraguan elections in 1984 should give ample evidence that it existed. There was no real coup before, but there was a period of real instability, nearly a civil war, after which the Sandanistas rose to power without an election. Keep in mind the US initially supported them until it became clear they wanted to institute real reform.

With all due respect to Prof. Chomsky, this sounds like about one twentieth of the story, and some references to actual evidence would be nice.

Unforunately, I edited the references out for clearer reading. Chomsky is well known for providing cites for just about everything he says. More information, this time with references:

President Bush issued a promise “to lift the trade embargo and assist in Nicaragua’s reconstruction” if Chamorro wins the election, the White House announced.(35)

…

There is nothing subtle about any of this. A Canadian observer mission sponsored by unions and development agencies, along with church, human rights, and academic groups, completed a four-week investigation of the election preparations in Nicaragua … Its conclusion, as reported by wire services (but apparently unpublished here), was that the U.S. “is doing everything it can to disrupt the elections set for next year”: “American intervention is the main obstacle to the attainment of free and fair elections in Nicaragua,” the report of the mission stated. It added further that the contras were attempting to sabotage the elections. They are “waging a campaign of intimidation with the clear message, `if you support the [Sandinista government], we will be back to kill you’.” The Canadian mission estimates that the contras killed 42 people in “election violence” in October.(37)

35 AP, Nov. 8, 1989.

37 AP, Oct. 26, 1989; Miami Herald, Oct. 27, 1989, brief notice.

[Dr_Paprika]

Don’t overlook the American role in supporting the Cambodian government of Pol Pot or the shady business of arm sales. America has often acted in a dubious, even greedy manner. And if they had given Pol some recognition at the 1954 Geneva conference, they could have avoided the whole Nam fiasco. I agree conflict was inevitable due to the cold war.

[RickJay]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Avumede *
**

Ortega was elected by a wide margin in 1984.**

Having examined some documentation on the 1984 election, I have to take my statement back; that election, which I had thought was a joke, was as fair as could have been expected under the circumstances.