# Was the US founded on Christian principles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358 "2014-04-30T14:37:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/21 "2014-04-30T16:26:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you can show me that the phrase “in the year of Our Lord” was not used in secular documents, then yes I would. > [@magellan01](#): > > And then I showed 4 examples of the date being written in a format other than “In the Year of Our Lord” on official documents from the same era. Magellan, I think you misunderstood what iiandyiiii was saying. It was clear to me that he wasn’t asking you to give examples where there were documents that had another format of writing the date. That would be silly as it’s obvious anyone would probably be able to do that. He was asking for you to prove that the format “in the year of Our Lord” was something that was never used for secular documents, since you’re claiming that use of that format is evidence that the U.S. was founded on Judeo-Chritian principles. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/22 "2014-04-30T16:30:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > WHAT?!!! Look at the exchange. It was MY contention that The Constitution did have a nod to religion/God in it, due to the use of “In the Year of Our Lord”. YOUR point was that no credence she be given to that because that’s the way dates were always written back then. I then asked you if you would admit error and concede the point if I could show you other official documents that used a dating mechanism that was unlike “In the Year of Our Lord”. So, should buildings with cornerstones that use “ad” qualify for religious tax exemptions? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/23 "2014-04-30T16:32:55Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Magellan, I think you misunderstood what iiandyiiii was saying. It was clear to me that he wasn’t asking you to give examples where there were documents that had another format of writing the date. That would be silly as it’s obvious anyone would probably be able to do that. He was asking for you to prove that the format “in the year of Our Lord” was something that was never used for secular documents, since you’re claiming that use of that format is evidence that the U.S. was founded on Judeo-Chritian principles. Yep, this is it. Thank you 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/24 "2014-04-30T16:35:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, should buildings with cornerstones that use “ad” qualify for religious tax exemptions? [Quote=Jesus] Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s… [/quote] That’s a Christian principle we routinely follow or ignore depending on who’s building it is. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/25 "2014-04-30T16:39:40Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > He was asking for you to prove that the format “in the year of Our Lord” was something that was never used for secular documents, since you’re claiming that use of that format is evidence that the U.S. was founded on Judeo-Chritian principles. The initials A.D. and B.C., and the use of 1 A.D. as the datum for the calendar year, are in general use worldwide, although other calendars obviously exist. Does that mean the world is Judeo-Christian? Or do the uses of Roman gods’ names for the months mean the world is Roman-goddist? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/26 "2014-04-30T16:46:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No you didn’t – you found some secular documents that used a different phrase. That doesn’t show that _secular documents_ do not use the phrase “in the Year of our Lord”. I proved that secular documents do indeed (sometimes) use that phrase, which was my main point – that the Constitution, a secular document, used that phrase, which does not imply anything religious as it was just a common way to state the date. > > Which supports my point 🙂 > > Right – good examples, that show “in the Year of Our Lord” was NOT the only way to state the date on secular documents. And I never said it was the only way. It was a common way, which I said, and then later I demonstrated. > > No, for me to concede the point, you would have had to show that “In the Year of Our Lord” was _never_ used (or, at least, not commonly used) on secular documents. > > No, my evidence supported my point – that “In the Year of Our Lord” was a common way to state the date on secular documents at the time. > > I found secular documents that, like the Constitution, used the phrase “In the Year of Our Lord”. That proves my point – that the phrase was a common way to state the date. > > It’s not that hard. Yes, the task I set out for you such that I would concede the point was rather difficult (and, it turns out, impossible, because I was right) – that’s why I set it out! Did you expect something easy? And it turns out I was correct – that is a common phrase that was used in secular documents. Like the Constitution. So it has no relevance as to whether the Constitution (or the nation) was inspired by Christianity. > > No changing the story here. I said it was a common way to state the date in secular documents. I said I would concede the point if you could demonstrate it was _not used_ in secular documents. You showed that it was not used in a few secular documents, but then I showed that it was indeed used in other secular documents – thus proving my point: that phrase was indeed used, sometimes, in secular documents, and by itself had was nothing more than a common practice (though not the only common practice) for stating the date. This is utter bullshit. You were trying to build the impression that no credence should be given to the fact that “in the Year of Our Lord” was the common way it was done. I asked if you would concede the point if I could show that the date, in official documents, was often referred to with an expression other than that. You agreed. And then you try to say that "Oh, you meant that I’d have to show that it was NEVER used. Like I said, that’s bullshit. That is no way to debate. We are done. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/27 "2014-04-30T16:55:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Jesus > Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s… > [@TriPolar](#): > > That’s a Christian principle we routinely follow or ignore depending on who’s building it is. Jesus never said that. He has posted twice. [Once to say he wanted to be in a gerbil’s ass](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2507575&postcount=5) and once [to introduce himself and say that Judas wanted his nuts.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2507552&postcount=2) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/28 "2014-04-30T16:56:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is utter bullshit. You were trying to build the impression that no credence should be given to the fact that “in the Year of Our Lord” was the common way it was done. I asked if you would concede the point if I could show that the date, in official documents, was often referred to with an expression other than that. You agreed. I didn’t agree to this. You seem to have misunderstood me. I’m trying to help you understand it. > [@](#): > > And then you try to say that "Oh, you meant that I’d have to show that it was NEVER used. Like I said, that’s bullshit. That is no way to debate. That’s what I said from the beginning. > [@](#): > > We are done. You’re wrong, and **x-ray vision** gets what I was saying in post #21. Maybe that will help. Don’t take it personally – it’s no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/29 "2014-04-30T17:03:58Z")
Can we skip the question for a second and assume we agree that the country _was_ founded on Christian principles? If so, what is the implication? Do we now only have free exercise for Christians? Does the Establishment Clause now merely mean that the government can’t pick between Christian sects, but can promote Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/30 "2014-04-30T17:04:37Z")
**mags** , for me to concede on that point, I said “If you can show me that the phrase “in the year of Our Lord” was not used in secular documents, then yes I would.” You didn’t show me that it was not used in secular documents. You showed me a few secular documents that it was not on – obviously, a trivially easy assignment. For me to concede, you would have to show me that it wasn’t used on _any_ secular documents, or at least that it wasn’t used commonly. I assume your estimation of my intelligence is not so low that you really think I believed that you wouldn’t be able to find any documents at all from the time period that didn’t use that phrase 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/31 "2014-04-30T17:47:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Can we skip the question for a second and assume we agree that the country _was_ founded on Christian principles? If so, what is the implication? Do we now only have free exercise for Christians? Does the Establishment Clause now merely mean that the government can’t pick between Christian sects, but can promote Christianity? Can not agree when even the early congress did not see it that way. [http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th\_century/bar1796t.asp](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp) > [@](#): > > Article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli: > > ``` > As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. > > ``` That was signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796, when looked at it in congress no one batted an eye at that language back then. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/32 "2014-04-30T17:49:11Z")
I’m not saying I see it that way. I’m asking what it would mean if I did. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/33 "2014-04-30T18:11:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s what I said from the beginning. More bullshit. Show me where you used the word “never”. Go ahead. I’d love to see it. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re wrong, Nope. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Don’t take it personally – it’s no big deal. The way people debate i_s_ a big deal to me. I care less about someone’s position than _how_ they debate, which is why there are quite a few people who I rarely, if ever, agree with on this board, yet can be happy debating. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > mags, for me to concede on that point, I said “If you can show me that the phrase “in the year of Our Lord” was not used in secular documents, then yes I would.” I did that. I showed you 4 official documents that did not use that construction. I was even so careful as to find images of the original documents, so we could be certain. The documents you provided after the fact, while evidence of MY position, are not as clear cut. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You didn’t show me that it was not used in secular documents. You showed me a few secular documents that it was not on – obviously, a trivially easy assignment. For me to concede, you would have to show me that it wasn’t used on any secular documents, or at least that it wasn’t used commonly. Oh, so now your story is that you were just intentionally just wasting my fucking time? Sorry, I call this BULLSHIT, revisionist style. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I assume your estimation of my intelligence is not so low that you really think I believed that you wouldn’t be able to find any documents at all from the time period that didn’t use that phrase I don’t know what the fuck you assume. Nor care. and I don’t care two shits about how intelligent you are or are not. On a debate board I simply I care about how one debates. I care about one’s honesty. It goes to character. While I’ve had many heated debates with many people here, there is only one that is on my Ignore List. And that is due to his low character, not his position. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/34 "2014-04-30T18:11:49Z")
I’d argue that American secularism is itself a Christian principle, with some roots in pre-Christian European thought. It is part of an intellectual history that includes the Peace of Westphalia, the [Two Swords Theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duo_sunt) and many other developments. More generally, the way Americans, both culturally and in policy, conceive of religion and religious practice is extremely (Protestant) Christian. In my experience this holds true on both the left and the right, and even among non-Christians, especially those born and raised in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/35 "2014-04-30T18:25:53Z")
I have a hard time seeing the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, or the Constitution as Christian documents. They’re clearly much more heavily based on the traditions of classical Greece and Rome. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/36 "2014-04-30T18:25:55Z")
Why are you posting as if you’re pissed? Is it that outlandish that you might really have misunderstood me? > [@magellan01](#): > > More bullshit. Show me where you used the word “never”. Go ahead. I’d love to see it. I didn’t say “never”. I also didn’t say “always”. You thought I meant “always”, but you were wrong. I said “If you can show me that the phrase “in the year of Our Lord” was not used in secular documents, then yes I would.” I should have added the word “commonly” – so it should have been “If you can show me that the phrase “in the year of Our Lord” was not **commonly** used in secular documents, then yes I would.” > [@](#): > > The way people debate i_s_ a big deal to me. I care less about someone’s position than _how_ they debate, which is why there are quite a few people who I rarely, if ever, agree with on this board, yet can be happy debating. I’m happy debating you. You’re wrong about what I said – I didn’t say I would concede if you showed me a few secular docs that didn’t use “In the year of Our Lord”. I did not say this. You might have thought I did, or thought I meant it, but I did not. > [@](#): > > I did that. I showed you 4 official documents that did not use that construction. I was even so careful as to find images of the original documents, so we could be certain. This did not meet the word-for-word meaning of my statement. _Showing a few documents that do not use that phrase is not the same as showing that the phrase is not used in secular documents_. > [@](#): > > The documents you provided after the fact, while evidence of MY position, are not as clear cut. This makes no sense. My position is (and was from the beginning) that “In the Year of Our Lord” is a commonly used phrase in secular documents, and has nothing to do with whether the document is inspired by Christian principles. Then, I showed some other secular documents (treaties with Native American tribes) from the time period that use the phrase “In the Year of Our Lord”. This supports my position, not yours. If I found ten more treaties that used that phrase, there would be even more support for my position – which, again, is that the phrase was commonly used in secular documents at the time. That doesn’t mean it was always used – obviously, as you showed, it was not. But it was used frequently, on treaties, and on the US Constitution, and my contention is that this has no religious significance. > [@](#): > > Oh, so now your story is that you were just intentionally just wasting my fucking time? Sorry, I call this BULLSHIT, revisionist style. I didn’t make you do anything! You asked what it would take for me to concede the point – and I told you: (again) “If you can show me that the phrase “in the year of Our Lord” was not used in secular documents, then yes I would.” That phrase is used in secular documents. I was right. You failed to show that the phrase was not used in secular documents. You showed 4 secular documents with a different phrase. This did not meet the requirement for me to concede. And then I found examples that negated the possibility of me conceding – **because that phrase, as was my point, really was used in secular documents.** > [@](#): > > I don’t know what the fuck you assume. Nor care. and I don’t care two shits about how intelligent you are or are not. On a debate board I simply I care about how one debates. I care about one’s honesty. It goes to character. While I’ve had many heated debates with many people here, there is only one that is on my Ignore List. And that is due to his low character, not his position. You’re getting heated for no reason. This really is a misunderstanding. If you have more heat and anger, then PM me. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/37 "2014-04-30T18:38:52Z")
Crud… wrong thread. Disregard! ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/38 "2014-04-30T20:36:54Z")
Not that this will prove anything or convince anybody, but if they had founded the US on Christian principles, why wouldn’t they have explicitly spelled that out in the Constitution? If _you_ founded a country or state or whatever on your religion, wouldn’t you find a way to mention said religion in your Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/39 "2014-04-30T20:38:03Z")
… and not to _explicitly separate_ the government from religion? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358/40 "2014-04-30T20:50:20Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Not that this will prove anything or convince anybody, but if they had founded the US on Christian principles, why wouldn’t they have explicitly spelled that out in the Constitution? > > If _you_ founded a country or state or whatever on your religion, wouldn’t you find a way to mention said religion in your Constitution? Compare and contrast the US Constitution with the clip I gave from the MA State Constitution, above. The difference is quite clear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-us-founded-on-christian-principles/687358.md?page=3)