# Was the Vatican territory (what is now Vatican City) at any time ever ruled by a foreign power : Venetian or Habsburg or French?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-vatican-territory-what-is-now-vatican-city-at-any-time-ever-ruled-by-a-foreign-power-venetian-or-habsburg-or-french/989552>\
**Category:** Factual Questions\
**Created:** [September 3, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-vatican-territory-what-is-now-vatican-city-at-any-time-ever-ruled-by-a-foreign-power-venetian-or-habsburg-or-french/989552 "2023-09-03T16:50:53Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 5\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\
**Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-vatican-territory-what-is-now-vatican-city-at-any-time-ever-ruled-by-a-foreign-power-venetian-or-habsburg-or-french/989552/21 "2023-09-05T08:08:28Z")

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I’d say that by the standards of the Catholic Church, an organisation that’s two millennia old, it is. Qui pensiamo in secoli. 1870 was only eleven popes ago, out of the 266 that have been there so far.

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**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\
**Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-vatican-territory-what-is-now-vatican-city-at-any-time-ever-ruled-by-a-foreign-power-venetian-or-habsburg-or-french/989552/22 "2023-09-05T08:22:31Z")

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If you want to read more about it, look up the keyword “doctrine of the two swords”. That was the metaphor under which medieval thinkers debated the question whether the popes derive their legitimacy from the emperors or vice versa (the “two swords” represent, symbolically, secular and spiritual rule).

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**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\
**Post date:** [September 5, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-vatican-territory-what-is-now-vatican-city-at-any-time-ever-ruled-by-a-foreign-power-venetian-or-habsburg-or-french/989552/23 "2023-09-05T21:19:57Z")

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> [@Schnitte](#):
>
> I’d say that by the standards of the Catholic Church, an organisation that’s two millennia old, it is. Qui pensiamo in secoli. 1870 was only eleven popes ago, out of the 266 that have been there so far.

More recent than that, since we’re just talking about a Pope born then, not serving them. Pius XI (served 1922-1939) was born before then, and he’s only seven Popes ago.

Though the last Pope born in the Papal States appears to be Pius IX (1846-1878, born 1792), who was coincidentally the Pope in office when the Papal States ceased to exist.

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**Author:** ![Octagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2acd7d/32.png) [@Octagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octagon)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-vatican-territory-what-is-now-vatican-city-at-any-time-ever-ruled-by-a-foreign-power-venetian-or-habsburg-or-french/989552/24 "2023-09-06T14:18:16Z")

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Thanks Francis\_Vaughan. I’m interested in any book you can recommend that specifically addresses how Christian missionaries made Christianity appealing to the pagans ("that Christianity was a religion that would provide divine creation and recognition of kings. ") in addition to other selling points that would have appealed to tribal chieftains.

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**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\
**Post date:** [September 6, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-vatican-territory-what-is-now-vatican-city-at-any-time-ever-ruled-by-a-foreign-power-venetian-or-habsburg-or-french/989552/25 "2023-09-06T16:15:55Z")

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> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#):
>
> the current ruling Pope is Brazilian

Hehehe, I somehow can’t see good old Jorge wearing the Verdeamarelha…

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