# Was the wine in the Bible, Non-alcoholic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 31, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892 "2006-05-31T16:24:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/41 "2006-06-01T21:15:27Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > My denomination (Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, or Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement if you want to get _really_ technical), is rather uptight and, IMHO, intellectually dishonest about this… I was raised in (Independent) Christian Churches. By my late teens, I was pretty well indoctrinated that alcohol was a Bad Thing. I assumed for a long time that the attitude was as intense in other Baptist-type churches. For me, it got to the point that though I lost my faith in Xtianity, I kept the teetotalism. At one point, I wondered if I was really more of a Muslim. (“Hey, I believe in God, but not a divine Messiah, & I’m compulsively sober!”) But in the end I couldn’t accept the sexism. Or the praying five times a day, or… ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/42 "2006-06-01T22:46:26Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > Genesis 19:30-36 > Not something that can be done with non-alcoholic wine. :dubious: I’ve wondered how Lot was so drunk that he didn’t realize he was getting busy with his daughters, but not so drunk that he couldn’t get it up. I mean, I have in the past been drunk enough that Frank didn’t want to stand up, but I didn’t have any trouble recognizing the woman I was telling “This has never happened to me before …” So the other way around sounds peculiar to me. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/43 "2006-06-14T19:53:22Z")
> [@Phase42](#): > > I’ve wondered how Lot was so drunk that he didn’t realize he was getting busy with his daughters, but not so drunk that he couldn’t get it up. I mean, I have in the past been drunk enough that Frank didn’t want to stand up, but I didn’t have any trouble recognizing the woman I was telling “This has never happened to me before …” So the other way around sounds peculiar to me. Well, that story is a slur on the ancestry of Moab & Ammon, which probably has little or no basis in reality. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/44 "2006-06-14T19:54:42Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Well, that story is a slur on the ancestry of Moab & Ammon, which probably has little or no basis in reality. Misplaced comma. Moab & Ammon were real; Lot may be fiction. It’s amazing the degree to which ancient Semites impugned their rivals’ ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/45 "2006-06-14T20:16:55Z")
Adding water to wine is still a pretty common practice here in South America, Turkey Georgia, also seen in France as well. All done for taste reasons. Wine produced for local consumption which is at the rock bottom end of the price range tends to be fairly bitter, almost oxidised, and as such the locals when having a small bottle at lunch whilst eating half a side of cow tend to dilute with water and in some cases soda water. It is an acquired but popular taste. Note this is really only for local wines local market, certainly not needed for the export wines or those higher up he price range. I would say adding water also dilutes so whilst you may still polish off the botle and consume same amount of vino, whilst having a bit more vol. to glug on and quench thirst. blondchap ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/46 "2006-06-14T20:21:47Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > And in one of Paul’s letters (to Timothy? I’m not sure now), the Apostle beseeches his correspondent to remember to add wine to his water, for the sake of his delicate stomach. So there’s even biblical reference to health benefits from wine. This gets turned on its head, though, by sects advocating complete abstinence, like the Free Presbyterians. They say it demonstrates that Paul had to urge the other to take wine medicinally, because drinking wine regularly, according to the FPs, was not considered normal or acceptable among the early Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/47 "2006-06-14T20:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities. [I Timothy 5:23](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=5&verse=23&version=9&context=verse) ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/48 "2006-06-15T00:36:32Z")
Hebrew is a very precise language. The word _yayin_ always means wine. (Although fermented juice of Concord grapes stretches the definition of “wine” to its limit.) I can’t think of the word for “fruit juice” OTTOMH. **Zev** or **Doc Cathode** , please call my agent. The book of Esther specifically discusses people getting drunk on wine. Alcohol plays a recurring role in the story’s plot points. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/49 "2006-06-15T00:38:05Z")
I just thought of something else. I seem to recall that _aged_ wine is a comparatively recent invention. Do any vinophiles (sp???) have any facts on this point? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/50 "2006-06-15T04:58:49Z")
I remember when I originally heard the “wine was really non-alcholic” ‘theory’. “So. That would imply that Jesus’s first miracle, the big thing he started to be known for, was turning water into Kool-Aid.” 😃 When I had my first Communion I wanted (and still want!) to know what kind of wine my church uses for the Eucharist. Maybe I have bad taste, or maybe they have good wine, but I’d drink the whole cup if I could. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/51 "2006-06-15T05:13:43Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > I just thought of something else. I seem to recall that _aged_ wine is a comparatively recent invention. Do any vinophiles (sp???) have any facts on this point? Oh yeah. Oenophiles. I think. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/52 "2006-06-15T08:16:28Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > I just thought of something else. I seem to recall that _aged_ wine is a comparatively recent invention. Do any vinophiles (sp???) have any facts on this point? There’s another Biblical quote: Luke 5:39 - \*No one wants new wine after drinking old wine. They say, “The old wine is better.” \* ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/53 "2006-06-15T11:44:44Z")
It always seemed rather clear to me that the wine Jesus was drinking had alcohol in it. “For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.”’” (Luke 7:33-34) (My translation says _wine bibber_.) ---
**Author:** ![psycat90](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@psycat90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psycat90)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/54 "2006-06-15T18:45:43Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > I just thought of something else. I seem to recall that _aged_ wine is a comparatively recent invention. Do any vinophiles (sp???) have any facts on this point? I think this is true. Considering actual wine production dates back to something like 5000 or 6000 BC. Cork is recorded as being used by the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans as stoppers for wine, among other things, but it wasn’t the common method of preserving a container of wine. I believe the first real break for the cork was when Dom Perignon used it as a stopper for Champagne (and no, he didn’t invent it) in the 1600s. By the 17th century glass making technology had improved enough to make more uniform bottles/necks/finishes. That led to true cork production/harvesting specifically for use as wine stoppers in Spain and Portugal by the 18th century. And \*that \*led to Karl Wienke’s invention - the ‘waiter’s friend’ style of corkscrew. And all of those things led to true wine collecting, vintage dating wines, etc. So I’d say yes, comparatively speaking, storing wine with the intention of aging it is a pretty recent ‘invention.’ And even now usually only meant for high end/better wines. ---
**Author:** ![Mirror\_Image\_egamI\_rorriM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Mirror\_Image\_egamI\_rorriM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mirror_Image_egamI_rorriM)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/55 "2006-06-15T23:27:18Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Hebrew is a very precise language. The word _yayin_ always means wine. (Although fermented juice of Concord grapes stretches the definition of “wine” to its limit.) I can’t think of the word for “fruit juice” OTTOMH. **Zev** or **Doc Cathode** , please call my agent. > > The book of Esther specifically discusses people getting drunk on wine. Alcohol plays a recurring role in the story’s plot points. [Concord grapes](http://www.concordgrape.org/) are an American fruit. I’m pretty sure this _yayin_ does not contain Concord grape juice at all. ---
**Author:** ![psycat90](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@psycat90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psycat90)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/56 "2006-06-15T23:40:24Z")
I could be wrong, but I kinda got the feeling that was a slight backhanded comment on Scuba\_Ben’s part regarding [Manischewitz Wine](http://www.manischewitzwine.com/products/products.htm). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/57 "2006-06-16T00:06:28Z")
> [@psycat90](#): > > So I’d say yes, comparatively speaking, storing wine with the intention of aging it is a pretty recent ‘invention.’ And even now usually only meant for high end/better wines. Yet see this quote from an egyptian amphoea back in post# 24: > [@](#): > > Year 5. Sweet wine of the Estate of Aton of the Western River. If they didn’t have cork, wax or tar would do. ---
**Author:** ![psycat90](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@psycat90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psycat90)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/58 "2006-06-16T00:50:35Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Yet see this quote from an egyptian amphoea back in post# 24: > … > If they didn’t have cork, wax or tar would do. They sure would, which is why I noted that corks weren’t the primary material used to seal containers of wine. And I’m not getting the relevance of the quote as it pertains to Scuba\_Ben’s question, unless I misunderstood it. (I am familiar with that story/article, it was a fairly big one a few weeks ago.) While it can obviously be argued that the wine was meant to be stored for an extended period of time in a tomb with a dead guy, it doesn’t (at least as far as I can see) mean it was meant to be cellared the way fine wines of today are, to improve upon their characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/59 "2006-06-16T01:18:59Z")
> [@psycat90](#): > > it doesn’t (at least as far as I can see) mean it was meant to be cellared the way fine wines of today are, to improve upon their characteristics. YYou’re right in that it doesn’t show modern cellared storage etc. However, place and year dating an amphora for a generic and evanescent liquid seems a bit of a stretch. Someone appears to have cared where the wine came from and how old it was. It’d be strange for them to only care about that when the wine was destined for some old guys tomb. Thus I suspect that there were other similarly labeled amphora that went to the non-funeral trade; perhaps the corner wine store? ---
**Author:** ![psycat90](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@psycat90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psycat90)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892/60 "2006-06-16T02:05:44Z")
Hahaha. Perhaps. An anthropologist I am not. I was being a tiny bit facetious when I said the wine was going into a tomb with a dead guy. While, true, that was the case, the wines that were historically put in tombs with the upper class, or even consumed by the upper class at that time, were usually marked in some way with regards to the winegrowing and winemaking processes and were of the highest quality, as noted in both of the articles you linked to. > [@](#): > > Unlike the common Egyptian’s domestically brewed beer, wine was made exclusively for royalty and elite, being brewed on special large-scale facilities primarily owned by the royal family . Early in Egyptian history, vineyards were only owned by well-to-do nobility due to the poor political and economical conditions . Owning a vineyard was very prestigious , and they were initially a luxury rather than an investment . … . Workers from Deir El Median (West Bank of Thebes) could have possibly received wine bonuses, as there have been several wine labels recovered from garbage dumps (although it is not clear who in the village hierarchy would have received this wine, whether just the overseers, or any of the workers) . > [@](#): > > 1. Labelling and Storing: After the sealing, the wet mud was stamped with the information about the wine… Information included the regnal year, name of the vineyard, name of the wine maker and often the quality of the wine . The wine was inspected by special officers or “inspectors of the wine” > [@](#): > > “In ancient Egypt, the royal family and the upper classes drank wine, which was also thought to be suitable among the necessities for a good afterlife,” Why they marked them, I can’t say. So far the history I’ve read doesn’t seem to indicate that it was for the cellaring/aging purposes we’re familiar with today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892.md?page=4)