# Was the Wright Brothers' first flight really "controlled and sustained"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 28, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143 "2021-06-28T01:14:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/21 "2021-06-30T08:57:18Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree, but to be somewhat contrary and argumentative, how is this different than a cannonball? A cannonball isn’t powered. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/22 "2021-06-30T10:39:36Z")
[quote="md-2000,]…and eventually reach the point where RUD (Rapid Unplanned Disassembly) is likely. [/quote]I Is that anything like “re-kitting?” I like your version better. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/23 "2021-06-30T10:57:04Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree, but to be somewhat contrary and argumentative, how is this different than a cannonball? Did you read the subsequent discussion elaborating that active control was part of the flight? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/24 "2021-06-30T11:05:05Z")
Yes, my confusion of the definition has been alleviated thanks to the replies of many posters. Obviously I didn’t think a cannonball counted anymore than a bullet being fired or a baseball being thrown. I remember visiting the Wright Brothers Museum as a kid and tried to remember the very careful definition of “flight” from that time. Wasn’t one of the criteria that you land at at least the same elevation you left the ground? IIRC, the park ranger said that if you took off from the top of a hill, stayed aloft for 20 minutes, flew to 15,000ft., and then did all sorts of tricks, but then landed on a strip at the bottom of the hill that scientists of the day would have said, “Nice glide.” ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/25 "2021-06-30T14:45:55Z")
Earleir in the thread it was mentioned that the Wrights’ first flight involved flying into a stiff wind to get the airspeed to get airborne. Regardless, the engine and propeller added sufficient extra speed to get airborne, as opposed to, say, a kite. As for “landing at the same altitude” it was probably meant to eliminate something like Lilenthal’s glider flights, where essentially he was gliding down a hill. Motor or not, if the reason you got speed and got airborne was gravity and the net path was downhill, then there qould be some question if it was flight under its own power. After all, hang gliders, unpowered, do get more altitude than the launch site thanks to updrafts. But if you can’t take the same craft to Chicago or Kansas and also get airborne, are you actually performing powered flight? And of course, there’s the debate “is it flying if you used the wind for an assist?” But the same craft eventually would launch from arbitrary locations and under arbitrary wind conditions, so i would suggest the answer is “yes”. they just used the winds the first few tests to ensure they had the Wright stuff. Ground effect improves lift (air is compressed between wing and ground) so the logical continuation of the debate is “can the craft get out of ground effect - and if not, is it really powered flight, or a form of hovercraft?” The last flight of that first day got to 10 feet so probably fairly high out of most ground effect benefit. The most interesting thing was that the Wrights were not “winging it”. They did wind tunnel tests, calculated things like drag and lift, to determine what power they needed and what thrust the propellers should be giving, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/26 "2021-06-30T16:37:15Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Wasn’t one of the criteria that you land at at least the same elevation you left the ground? IIRC, the park ranger said that if you took off from the top of a hill, stayed aloft for 20 minutes, flew to 15,000ft., and then did all sorts of tricks, but then landed on a strip at the bottom of the hill that scientists of the day would have said, “Nice glide.” That’s exactly what I said to the pilot on my last flight from Denver back to Seattle. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/27 "2021-06-30T16:39:12Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > The Wrights developed (and patented) “wing warping”, i.e. the pilot used a joystick that when pushed side to side would warp the shape of the edge of the wings to change the lift, allowing one wing to lift more than the other to bank and to stabilize the flight. … Nitpick - the Wrights’ original control system used two levers that both moved forward and back, not side to side. One controlled pitch, the other controlled roll, but which was which, and which direction was left or right, you had to remember and was not intuitive. This confusing system caused problems. I can’t remember when they finally switched to the Louis Blériot invented four-axis joystick. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/28 "2021-06-30T16:56:43Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Ground effect improves lift (air is compressed between wing and ground) so the logical continuation of the debate is “can the craft get out of ground effect - and if not, is it really powered flight, or a form of hovercraft?” The last flight of that first day got to 10 feet so probably fairly high out of most ground effect benefit. Ground effect is why people debate whether or not the Spruce Goose really “flew”, or whether the Soviet ekranoplans count as aircraft. > [@garygnu](#): > > Nitpick - the Wrights’ original control system used two levers that both moved forward and back, not side to side. One controlled pitch, the other controlled roll, but which was which, and which direction was left or right, you had to remember and was not intuitive. This confusing system caused problems. I can’t remember when they finally switched to the Louis Blériot invented four-axis joystick. Didn’t the Wright Flyer also include a cradle for the pilot’s hips? I think it was one stick for the elevator, one for the rudder, and the hip cradle controlled roll. I don’t know what was the first plane to use a two-axis joystick and rudder pedals. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/29 "2021-06-30T18:59:40Z")
[quote=“Robot\_Arm, post:28, topic:945143, full:true”]… Didn’t the Wright Flyer also include a cradle for the pilot’s hips? I think it was one stick for the elevator, one for the rudder, and the hip cradle controlled roll. I don’t know what was the first plane to use a two-axis joystick and rudder pedals. [/quote] First off, I was wrong about the inventor. The joystick and pedals design was first used on a Blériot plane, but was invented by his collaborator Robert Esnault-Pelterie. This was in 1908 and refined for the Channel Crossing in 1909. The early Wright control inputs indeed involved a hip cradle that combined roll and yaw together. Later, after a crash, the two brothers had competing cockpit input configurations. Wilbur had a two-axis joystick with horizontal movement replacing the hip cradle. Orville kept the two levers, but added a knob on one for yaw control. IMHO, as high as I hold the Wright Brothers in esteem, their control inputs were stupid. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/30 "2021-06-30T21:06:11Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > As for “controlled” - it was apparently very unstable, so it was hard enough to just get it to go straight for any length of time As an interesting aside – according to a documentary I saw years ago, the Wrights’ earlier work building bicycles gave them the idea that a plane doesn’t necessarily need to be inherently stable. Much like a bicycle, their plane required constant, small inputs from the pilot to keep it going straight. That gave them the edge over most of the other inventors working on powered flight who were looking at the problem from more of a shipbuilding perspective, with the goal to make something that was inherently stable. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/31 "2021-06-30T21:24:35Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > with the goal to make something that was inherently stable. Which are what fighter planes are. Deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/32 "2021-06-30T21:29:56Z")
Fighters are unstable, or at least not as stable, which I think is what you meant? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/33 "2021-06-30T21:37:24Z")
Yes. Not really an aviation buff of much, but I think that makes them quicker to react because they are not inherently trying to fly straight and level. Glad to be corrected. Don’t know where I heard that. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/34 "2021-06-30T21:55:29Z")
Yes, that’s right. Lots of stability means easy to fly but not very manoeuvrable because the plane is resistant to change. Unstable means it requires a lot of attention to fly, but it is manoeuvrable. The development of fly-by-wire systems meant that fighters could be designed with pure manoeuvrability in mind as the computer can take care of all the tiny control inputs required to keep it pointing in the direction the pilot wants. ---
**Author:** ![Pixel\_Dent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Pixel\_Dent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixel_Dent)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/35 "2021-07-01T15:33:30Z")
> The early Wright control inputs indeed involved a hip cradle that combined roll and yaw together. Later, after a crash, the two brothers had competing cockpit input configurations. Was that the same crash after which they started adding dihedral to the wings to improve stability? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/36 "2021-07-01T17:05:05Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Yes. Not really an aviation buff of much, but I think that makes them quicker to react because they are not inherently trying to fly straight and level. Glad to be corrected. Don’t know where I heard that. Fighter aircraft weren’t always like this. It takes computers and sensors to avoid departing from controlled flight, and they weren’t really up to the task (at least for production aircraft) until the development of the F-16 in the late 1970s: > **[General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Negative_stability_and_fly-by-wire)** > > The General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon is an American single-engine supersonic multirole fighter aircraft originally developed by General Dynamics for the United States Air Force (USAF). Designed as an air superiority day fighter, it evolved into a successful all-weather multirole aircraft with over 4,600 built since 1976. Although no longer purchased by the U.S. Air Force, improved versions are being built for export. In 1993, General Dynamics sold its aircraft manufacturing business to th... For more info on relaxed/negative stability: > **[Relaxed stability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relaxed_stability)** > > In aviation, an aircraft is said to have relaxed stability if it has low or negative stability. > An aircraft with negative stability will have a tendency to change its pitch and bank angles spontaneously. An aircraft with negative stability cannot be trimmed to maintain a certain attitude, and will, when disturbed in pitch or roll, continue to pitch or roll in the direction of the disturbance at an ever-increasing rate. > This can be contrasted with the behaviour of an aircraft with positive stabi... ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/37 "2021-07-02T00:53:10Z")
I recall reading the stealth fighter was sufficiently dynamically unstable that without the computer assistance would be impossible to fly. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2021, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143/38 "2021-07-02T03:06:28Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Fighter aircraft weren’t always like this. It takes computers and sensors to avoid departing from controlled flight, and they weren’t really up to the task (at least for production aircraft) until the development of the F-16 in the late 1970s: Side note: a friend reported flying a WWII era German fighter without trim adjustment. If you stopped active control, it sharply rolled and turned: a known characteristic of many pre-trim aircraft. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wright-brothers-first-flight-really-controlled-and-sustained/945143.md?page=1)