# Was there a massacre in Jenin? Why do the media disagree? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380 "2002-04-18T20:21:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![POWER\_station](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@POWER\_station](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POWER_station)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/61 "2002-04-22T00:23:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Please, let’s not forget the difference between body count and morality. There could be hundreds of dead, but if it turns out that the vast majority of them were activists shooting at Israelis, then Israel did nothing wrong. > > \*\* and do you know that 5000 palestinians from Jenin got homeless ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/62 "2002-04-22T04:28:42Z")
Look, I’m not going to descend further. My calling you on your inaccuracies has been an ongoing process. Your stating that I’ve said things that I have not said and calling me rascist because I believe that the media is biased against Israel and support such a belief with examples, is just the start. The hypocrisy of those who decry the suspicion of antisemetic motivations yet are free and easy calling Jews racist disgusts me. The silence of others in allowing this behavior saddens me. But it does not surprise. I have no answer to **yojimbo**. I know of no justification. There is no evidence at this time to refute the Israeli version of events in Jenin, and if a massacre (indiscriminate killing for the intent of revenge) occurred evidence would be readily had. Be like Humpty Dumpty to Alice if you like, and make words use what you want them to mean, but if the IDF believed that the only way to get at the terrorists was to destroy the hiding places, and they warned that bulldozers were coming the next day, and they then came, and the intent was to minimize civilian deaths, then it is not a massacre. Meanwhile back to bias: Today in Haaretz > [@](#): > > 5 Palestinians surrender at Bethlehem’s Church of Nativity > > By Amos Harel and Ori Nir, Ha’aretz Correspondents and Agencies > > Five Palestinians who had been holed up in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem for over two weeks gave themselves Sunday afternoon to Israel Defense Forces troops. > > Around 5.00 P.M., IDF soldiers spotted a number of young Palestinians waving a white flag close to the church’s gates. A special negotiating team was sent in and the five left the church a short time later. > > The five are not among the wanted Palestinians who have spent almost three weeks barricaded inside the church. At this stage though, it is still unclear whether they are militants or hostages the Palestinian gunmen have been holding inside the building, traditionally believed to be the birthplace of Jesus. > > Palestinians however said that the five escaped with the help of the IDF which put a ladder under a window of the church. They also alleged that the five were collaborators with Israel. > > The IDF said Sunday that that it had learned that the gunmen were holding 50 Palestinian children and youths in the church basement, and were not allowing them out, even for a short time. > > A 20-year-old Palestinian, Taher Manasra, who was shot in the leg, possibly by an IDF sniper, when he went to pick herbs, told the army that he had been held in the basement and that there was little food and water provided. > > Manasra, currently being treated at Jerusalem’s Hadassah Ein Kerem Hospital, told the IDF that some 50 youths were holed up in the church, along with 200 adults, including clergymen. Hmmmm… no report of the confirmation that child hostages are being held as human shields by the Palestinians Bethleham made it to [CNN.com](http://CNN.com). BBC reports that a few possible collaborators escaped (not hostages). But the characterization of having prisoners knock on doors as “human shields” gets headlines. So if a Palestinian is held by a Palestinian his life is somehow subhuman? Why isn’t that racist? I think there is a racism being practiced against Arabs. The implicit assumption by many that this kind of behavior is _expected_ from the Arabs (and thus not news and is condoned as the nature of the beast). I contend that such an expectation is a racist practice of much of the media. As to “extrajudicial executions” … Heck I’m against the death penalty even in judicial settings. I am disappointed that this has been the tactic taken, and believe that capture (even if it entails a _modest_ degree of additional risk) would be a preferred appraoch. Still, this terrorists aren’t about to bomb my house, so it is easy for me to say. And as an American, I had no problem with bombing the Hell out of Tora Bora without trial for its inhabitants. I was, as were many Americans, even willing to accept that some innocent Afganis would die as an unavoidable consequence of such an effort. So my condemnation of the Israeli tactic is tempered by acknowledged hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/63 "2002-04-22T08:10:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Thousands of people work for the UN. These 3 have demonstrated and are committed to an extreme anti-Israel position. Obviously their findings could be suspected of bias. The UN ought not want them to be part of the group either, for that reason. \*\* Really and they’ve demonstrated this how? By saying negative things about Israel. They couldn’t have a point could they? Off course not, how could i be so silly. Once you say anything that is not what the Israelis say you are engaging in extreme anti-Israel arguments. I’m waiting for them to be called anti-Semite next. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/64 "2002-04-22T08:24:10Z")
In addition to **yojimbo’s** point - can **december** provide: (a) examples of UN mistrust or investigations into the accounts of these three UN representatives? (b) evidence of their “extreme anti-Israeli postition” _other than as regards their comments on Jenin_? © accounts from other UN representatives that conflict with or deny the accounts of these three? (From the “thousands of others” that you mention). ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/65 "2002-04-22T09:15:11Z")
[sarcasm] I myself am particularly concerned about the UN’s bias in another part of the world. Reports from three years ago of maltreatment of East Timorese civilians show a clear indication that the UN has adopted an extreme anti-Indonesian position. [/sarcasm] [point] Sometimes criticism is valid, and does not necessarily indicate bias. [/point] ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/66 "2002-04-22T11:05:01Z")
Here’s two interesting articles from the papers [Brutal, yes. Massacre, no](http://www.observer.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,687958,00.html) > [@](#): > > But a massacre - in the sense it is usually understood - did not take place in Jenin’s refugee camp. > > Whatever crimes were committed here - and it appears there were many - a deliberate and calculated massacre of civilians by the Israeli army was not among them. and > [@](#): > > For even as the hunt for the bodies goes on, it is increasingly clear from evidence collected by this paper and other journalists, that the majority of those so far recovered have been Palestinian fighters from Islamic Jihad, Hamas and the al-Aqsa Brigades. Blatant Anti-Israeli propaganda 😉 However the massacre angle may be only a sideshow. > [@](#): > > The true crime of Jenin camp is this act of physical erasure. It is covered by Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention in its prohibition on ‘the extensive destruction or unlawful appropri ation of property, not justified by military necessity committed either unlawfully or wantonly.’ Also from [Barring aid to Jenin is ‘a war crime’](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=287344) > [@](#): > > But the aid agencies and UN officials here will press the case that even if there is ultimately no evidence of a massacre, severe atrocities certainly occurred. “The bottom line is that they kept out humanitarian aid for days and that in itself is a war crime,” said a senior UN official. “There is no other way to look at it than as an attempt to hide another war crime. People died after lying day after day in the rubble because we were not allowed in.” So while there may not have been a massacre there may well have been other issues that need to be looked at. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/67 "2002-04-22T16:46:48Z")
Massacre, hmmm… Let’s see, we have the St. Valentines day massacre, 7 rival gangters killed. We have the Oklahomo city bombing where 168 people died and it wasn’t called a massacre. It seems as if the term is used inconsistently at best. How many Palestinians(women and childeren) needed to be killed in order for this event to be considered a massacre? ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/68 "2002-04-22T22:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSeid \* > **Look, I’m not going to descend further. My calling you on your inaccuracies has been an ongoing process. Your stating that I’ve said things that I have not said and calling me rascist because I believe that the media is biased against Israel and support such a belief with examples, is just the start. The hypocrisy of those who decry the suspicion of antisemetic motivations yet are free and easy calling Jews racist disgusts me. The silence of others in allowing this behavior saddens me. But it does not surprise.** Good lord, and you said you wouldn’t descend further. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/69 "2002-04-23T01:04:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by whitetho \* > \*\*Well, maybe. According to an article in the Jerusalem Post, [Israel nixes UN’s Larsen, Robinson as fact-finders’](http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/21/News/News.47307.html) “Israel has agreed to cooperate with a UN fact-finding committee investigating the battle in Jenin, _as long as it does not include UN Middle East envoy Terje Larsen or UN Human Rights High Commissioner Mary Robinson._” (italics added). \*\*This [article](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2002/04/20/do2002.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2002/04/20/ixopinion.html) explains why one might suspect Terje Larsen of not being unbiased. (Note: The Jerusalem Post talks about Terje Larsen. The quote here talks about Terje Roed-Larsen. I assume they are one and the same.) > [@](#): > > Omar’s account is confirmed by the state of the corpses (“What appeared to be pipe bombs were partially hidden under a coat”). So you can understand why the UN’s head man, Mr Roed-Larsen, would rather talk about “unacceptable” Israeli conduct than why his “refugee” camp (funded by British taxpayers) is, in fact, a bomb factory with on-site demonstration facilities. Mr Roed-Larsen’s operation is a large part of the problem in the region. It’s possible he himself hasn’t a clue what’s going on: that appeared to be the case 18 months ago, **when Hizbollah guerrillas crossed over from Lebanon in UN-marked cars, abducted three IDF soldiers and murdered them, and Mr Roed-Larsen’s subordinates embarked on a nine-month cover-up of relevant video evidence**. The intemperate grandee might once again merely be out of the loop. But it beggars belief that officials on the ground in the UN-managed camp weren’t aware of the scale of terrorist activities: there are only so many blind eyes you can turn. That’s what’s “horrific beyond belief”: that the UN is complicit in terrorism. (emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/70 "2002-04-23T04:25:41Z")
**Tamerlane** , I wanted to accept your apologies, and offer mine for my sensitivities. I do need to correct you on a point: my belief of bias is not one of thinking that any particular media outlet is telling _inaccurate_ information. Information can be accurate and still very biased. It is _what_ gets covered and what gets ignored, and how things are worded. Giving headline coverage to accusations of “massacre” and never covering the fact that there is no evidene found of one. Ignoring the fact that hostages are being held in the Church of the Nativity while stating that Israelis use “human shields” without even stating that such a phrase means having prisoners knock on doors. Today CNN reported on the Palestinians hostages who escaped from the church and confirmed the children held in the basement … except that they inferred that they were trying to escape the IDF and failed to mention the hostages at all. And so and so on. Telling false information would be more like stating that I said that Palestinian deaths are less tragic than Israeli ones. I hope that you can understand my frustration here: Let me give you some examples of the reactions to the concept of a Jew suspecting that a poster has _antisemitic_ motivations - **EasyPhil** - it’s “namecalling” **POWER** - “an old zionistic trick” okay, this guy is also a self described homphobe and is happy to spread rumors of Israeli vans carting away bodies … him I can just ignore. **clairobscur** “something is antisemitic when it is motivated by antisemitism. Period … there’s no way to tell what his motivations are … I’m rather pissed off by this stance.” **Istara** “if you want to call them antisemitic damn well prove they are.” And what was the response to my being caled a racist for my belief that the media is biased against Israel? Silence from them all. Fine to call the Jew a racist. But for a Jew to suspect antisemitism is verboten. What do you think is the motivation for such a double standard? The only comment against his scurrilous insult was your “bone” and that included the damning praise of “he’s not _necessarily_ racist.” (again, your mea culpa is appreciated) **yojimbo** Thanks for the link, but please note how this article fits in the context. 1. It is admitted that the fact is that there was no massacre. Rather than point out that this meant that Palestinian witnesses were lying, and that the world leapt to believe the worst about the IDF, they wrap it with how awful the IDF was even though it wasn’t a massacre. 2. CNN, BBC, and others haven’t even gone that far. The words “Jenin massacre” are in the public consciousness now … the news that there was none will be not reported, copackaged with charges of human rights abuses by members of the IDF, or buried on page 27. Yeah, I still see that as biased. And that remains my answer to the op. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/71 "2002-04-23T05:48:03Z")
**DSeid** - I have never accused you of racism, in this thread or elsewhere. And sure, turn my comment around: “if you want to call a [pro-Israel? - however you would describe yourself] person racist damn well prove that they are.” I stand by that equally. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/72 "2002-04-23T06:37:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSeid \* > I wanted to accept your apologies, and offer mine for my sensitivities. Not a problem. As soon as I saw your response, I realized I had committed a faux pas, both by trying to inject levity into an obviously emotional and serious argument and in doing it in the way I did. > [@](#): > > I do need to correct you on a point: my belief of bias is not one of thinking that any particular media outlet is telling _inaccurate_ information. Information can be accurate and still very biased. It is _what_ gets covered and what gets ignored, and how things are worded. Giving headline coverage to accusations of “massacre” and never covering the fact that there is no evidene found of one. Ignoring the fact that hostages are being held in the Church of the Nativity while stating that Israelis use “human shields” without even stating that such a phrase means having prisoners knock on doors. Today CNN reported on the Palestinians hostages who escaped from the church and confirmed the children held in the basement … except that they inferred that they were trying to escape the IDF and failed to mention the hostages at all. And so and so on. Telling false information would be more like stating that I said that Palestinian deaths are less tragic than Israeli ones. Oh, I understood your point, pretty much. It’s just I see it being directed at all sides, not just Israel, depending on which news outlet is involved, the prevailing winds of political opinion, and what will sell. Sometimes it is a conscious or unconscious bias. Many times I think it is just Yellow Journalism - Like I said, the word ‘massacre’ is “sexy”. It sells papers and attracts viewers - Often that is the bottom line. > [@](#): > > I hope that you can understand my frustration here: Yes, I do. But a few obvious ( and notorious ) exceptions aside I don’t think there is really a lot of genuine anti-Semitism here at the Straight Dope, though I won’t say there isn’t a little unconscious bias of one sort or another floating around ( most of us have a touch - and again in multiple directions ). And I honestly don’t think the “pro-Palestinian” side of this debate ( for want of a better word, though I don’t think it is always a very good descriptor ) has a numerical superiority, either. My perception only, granted. > [@](#): > > And what was the response to my being caled a racist for my belief that the media is biased against Israel? > > Silence from them all. Fine to call the Jew a racist. But for a Jew to suspect antisemitism is verboten. What do you think is the motivation for such a double standard? Well, the thing is, from where I’m sitting, I can’t be certain it is one. I think obvious anti-Semites _do_ get called out here. But in this case I don’t think it is quite so obvious as you seem to and there is a tradition of giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Are Jews more likely on this board ( or in GD ) to be accused of racism in terms of this debate? I don’t _think_ so. But it is sometimes difficult to fathom a person’s real meaning in a medium like this and our world view and experiences obviously shapes our perceptions. It is not at all unlikely you and I might be looking at the same phrase and getting different messages from it. Which doesn’t necessarily mean I’m the right one. **efrem** has said ( more or less ) that he didn’t mean quite what he wrote, which I agree with you was out of line. I’m willing to accept that. Which obviously doesn’t mean you have to. > [@](#): > > The only comment against his scurrilous insult was your “bone” and that included the damning praise of “he’s not _necessarily_ racist.” (again, your mea culpa is appreciated) Yes, sorry about that last. I hesitated a bit before typing it, even though it wasn’t meant as a stinger. It is more that I was thinking at the time that I don’t know you, at least not well, so I can’t with any honesty speak to your inner motivations. I’d throw that disclaimer out with anyone ( well, maybe not now that I’ve thought about it a bit 😉 ). But I have to admit I might be a little wrankled if the shoe were on the other foot, so, once again, perhaps not the best choice of words. If it is any consolation at all, my verbal clumsiness aside, I don’t personally think you’re a racist 🙂 . - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/73 "2002-04-23T09:10:52Z")
**DSeid** : Ran across this in my sunday paper ( yes, I’m frequently a day behind ). Sort of on topic: > **[From my corner, The Chronicle erred on rally coverage](https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/From-my-corner-The-Chronicle-erred-on-rally-3656606.php)** > > In the superheated atmosphere of the Mideast crisis, every word, paragraph, graphic and... In the same issue they did one of those “man-in-the-street” canvas polls on the question, “Is U.S. media coverage of the Middle East crisis biased?” Couldn’t find this on-line, but generally the results ( from seven people asked ) boiled down to - one null answer ( essentially - didn’t bother to answer question properly ), one “media is pro-Arab” answer, three “media is pro-Israel”, two “mixed bag” ( one of which leaned towards a slight pro-Israel slant ). It’s all ( well, maybe some of it ) in the perception 🙂 . - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/74 "2002-04-23T13:35:54Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DSeid_ > \*\* Fine to call the Jew a racist. But for a Jew to suspect antisemitism is verboten. What do you think is the motivation for such a double standard?\*\* **DSied** , I do want to make one thing clear for you before stop your “descend”. You being Jewish has no bearing on this agruement what-so-ever, your religion has never been mentioned or even implied by anyone thoughtout this entire disscusion. However, I do find it dispecable that you managed to somehow infuse it as a factor in this debate. Being Jewish should not in any way effect your opinion on this subject matter towards one side or the other, if in fact logic(not ethinicy) is your deciding factor. So, you being in fact Jewish is irrelivent to the disscusion, and I would thank it if you stopped trying to make it a factor. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/75 "2002-04-23T16:21:22Z")
[massacres](http://www.counterpunch.org/fisksabra.html) The above should link you to an article about the Sabra and Chatila massacres of 1980. Among other things, it claims the killing continued unabated after the famous 1980 events. > [@](#): > > One of the members of the tank crews, Lt Avi Grabovsky–he was later to testify to the Israeli Kahan commission–had even witnessed the murder of several civilians the previous day and had been told not to “interfere”. Willful blindness regarding the killing of civilians, I would remind everyone, is a war crime. See, Nuremburg, where it was punishible by death. In an [earlier article](http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/Fisk_Sabra.html) Fisk claims the there was extensive physical evidence of IDF material support for the Christian Phalangist killers. (IDF Flares, U.S. Army Rations, more…) ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/76 "2002-04-23T16:41:16Z")
Er…1982. BTW, as for the OP: I think the jury is still out on “massacre” status for Jenin. Bulldozing houses of civilians shifts the presumption in favor of war crimes or “massacre.” UNTIL, of course, you factor in the use of human shields and booby traps. Not to mention suicide bombers and using ambulances as weapons carriers… ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/77 "2002-04-23T22:10:43Z")
AN article from CNN on the subject can be found here [http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html) THe Islamic Jihad fighter is quoted as saying > [@](#): > > “It was like hunting … like being given a prize. I couldn’t believe it when I saw the soldiers,” he said. “The Israelis knew that any soldier who went into the camp like that was going to get killed.” > > He added: “I’ve been waiting for a moment like that for years.” and > [@](#): > > Mardawi drew a map of the camp and talked about the course of the battle. Their weapons were guns and crudely made bombs and booby traps – “big ones” for tanks and “others the size of a water bottle.” He estimated 1,000 to 2,000 bombs and booby traps were spread through the camp. Sounds like some of the destruction was due to the booby traps they set. Sounds like a battle, rather than “massacre”. Still, no excuses for some of the things that have been reported (if they turn out to be true), the behaviour of some of the soldiers was atrocious. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/78 "2002-04-23T23:21:25Z")
**istara** , I apologize if somehow I impled that you had accused me of being racist. Such is not my bone to pick with you. I accuse you of the sin of omission, not comission. It is your _silence_ to the tactic of the charge of racism when leveled against one with a pro-Israeli POV, while being very willing to post on how it is very inappropriate to accuse someone of having antisemitic motive, that I object to. I stayed silent for a day waiting to see if any of the posters who condemn such suspicions voiced by Jews would equally condemn **efrem** ’s behavior. No one did. No one came forward with a condemnation since. I cannot see this as other than a double standard, a bias, and still ask you, what is the motivation for such a double standard? Why does it exist? I appreciate your belated endorsement of an equal standard, but why did it take my explicitly naming you for it to appear? ---
**Author:** ![POWER\_station](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@POWER\_station](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POWER_station)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2002, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/79 "2002-04-23T23:41:22Z")
Israel delays UN mission to Jenin [http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle\_east/newsid\_1946000/1946446.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1946000/1946446.stm) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2002, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380/80 "2002-04-24T00:43:19Z")
I think trying to make headlines with “massacre” without plain evidence has caused controversy and undermined to a certain extent the abuses that have occured in Jenin. If major Geneva convention abuses and excesses occured, then that should be self-evident. No idea who jumped the gun with the word “massacre”, be it Palestinians, reporters or some devious conspiracy to undermine credibility. Not allowing a UN fact finding mission certainly appears suspicious. Here’s a Bloomberg quote: Israel’s government withdrew an invitation for a United Nations fact-finding team to visit Jenin, where Palestinians allege hundreds of civilians were killed in a military offensive against suspected terrorists, Agence France-Presse and Reuters reported. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-a-massacre-in-jenin-why-do-the-media-disagree/104380.md?page=5)