and do you know that 5000 palestinians from Jenin got homeless
Look, I’m not going to descend further. My calling you on your inaccuracies has been an ongoing process. Your stating that I’ve said things that I have not said and calling me rascist because I believe that the media is biased against Israel and support such a belief with examples, is just the start. The hypocrisy of those who decry the suspicion of antisemetic motivations yet are free and easy calling Jews racist disgusts me. The silence of others in allowing this behavior saddens me. But it does not surprise.
I have no answer to yojimbo. I know of no justification.
There is no evidence at this time to refute the Israeli version of events in Jenin, and if a massacre (indiscriminate killing for the intent of revenge) occurred evidence would be readily had. Be like Humpty Dumpty to Alice if you like, and make words use what you want them to mean, but if the IDF believed that the only way to get at the terrorists was to destroy the hiding places, and they warned that bulldozers were coming the next day, and they then came, and the intent was to minimize civilian deaths, then it is not a massacre.
Meanwhile back to bias:
Today in Haaretz
Hmmmm… no report of the confirmation that child hostages are being held as human shields by the Palestinians Bethleham made it to CNN.com. BBC reports that a few possible collaborators escaped (not hostages). But the characterization of having prisoners knock on doors as “human shields” gets headlines. So if a Palestinian is held by a Palestinian his life is somehow subhuman? Why isn’t that racist? I think there is a racism being practiced against Arabs. The implicit assumption by many that this kind of behavior is expected from the Arabs (and thus not news and is condoned as the nature of the beast). I contend that such an expectation is a racist practice of much of the media.
As to “extrajudicial executions” … Heck I’m against the death penalty even in judicial settings. I am disappointed that this has been the tactic taken, and believe that capture (even if it entails a modest degree of additional risk) would be a preferred appraoch. Still, this terrorists aren’t about to bomb my house, so it is easy for me to say. And as an American, I had no problem with bombing the Hell out of Tora Bora without trial for its inhabitants. I was, as were many Americans, even willing to accept that some innocent Afganis would die as an unavoidable consequence of such an effort. So my condemnation of the Israeli tactic is tempered by acknowledged hypocrisy.
Really and they’ve demonstrated this how? By saying negative things about Israel. They couldn’t have a point could they?
Off course not, how could i be so silly. Once you say anything that is not what the Israelis say you are engaging in extreme anti-Israel arguments. I’m waiting for them to be called anti-Semite next.
In addition to yojimbo’s point - can december provide:
(a) examples of UN mistrust or investigations into the accounts of these three UN representatives?
(b) evidence of their “extreme anti-Israeli postition” other than as regards their comments on Jenin?
© accounts from other UN representatives that conflict with or deny the accounts of these three? (From the “thousands of others” that you mention).
[sarcasm] I myself am particularly concerned about the UN’s bias in another part of the world. Reports from three years ago of maltreatment of East Timorese civilians show a clear indication that the UN has adopted an extreme anti-Indonesian position. [/sarcasm]
[point] Sometimes criticism is valid, and does not necessarily indicate bias. [/point]
Here’s two interesting articles from the papers
and
Blatant Anti-Israeli propaganda 
However the massacre angle may be only a sideshow.
Also from
Barring aid to Jenin is ‘a war crime’
So while there may not have been a massacre there may well have been other issues that need to be looked at.
Massacre, hmmm…
Let’s see, we have the St. Valentines day massacre, 7 rival gangters killed. We have the Oklahomo city bombing where 168 people died and it wasn’t called a massacre. It seems as if the term is used inconsistently at best. How many Palestinians(women and childeren) needed to be killed in order for this event to be considered a massacre?
Good lord, and you said you wouldn’t descend further.
**This article explains why one might suspect Terje Larsen of not being unbiased. (Note: The Jerusalem Post talks about Terje Larsen. The quote here talks about Terje Roed-Larsen. I assume they are one and the same.)
Tamerlane,
I wanted to accept your apologies, and offer mine for my sensitivities. I do need to correct you on a point: my belief of bias is not one of thinking that any particular media outlet is telling inaccurate information. Information can be accurate and still very biased. It is what gets covered and what gets ignored, and how things are worded. Giving headline coverage to accusations of “massacre” and never covering the fact that there is no evidene found of one. Ignoring the fact that hostages are being held in the Church of the Nativity while stating that Israelis use “human shields” without even stating that such a phrase means having prisoners knock on doors. Today CNN reported on the Palestinians hostages who escaped from the church and confirmed the children held in the basement … except that they inferred that they were trying to escape the IDF and failed to mention the hostages at all. And so and so on. Telling false information would be more like stating that I said that Palestinian deaths are less tragic than Israeli ones.
I hope that you can understand my frustration here: Let me give you some examples of the reactions to the concept of a Jew suspecting that a poster has antisemitic motivations -
EasyPhil - it’s “namecalling”
POWER - “an old zionistic trick” okay, this guy is also a self described homphobe and is happy to spread rumors of Israeli vans carting away bodies … him I can just ignore.
clairobscur “something is antisemitic when it is motivated by antisemitism. Period … there’s no way to tell what his motivations are … I’m rather pissed off by this stance.”
Istara “if you want to call them antisemitic damn well prove they are.”
And what was the response to my being caled a racist for my belief that the media is biased against Israel?
Silence from them all. Fine to call the Jew a racist. But for a Jew to suspect antisemitism is verboten. What do you think is the motivation for such a double standard? The only comment against his scurrilous insult was your “bone” and that included the damning praise of “he’s not necessarily racist.” (again, your mea culpa is appreciated)
yojimbo Thanks for the link, but please note how this article fits in the context.
- It is admitted that the fact is that there was no massacre. Rather than point out that this meant that Palestinian witnesses were lying, and that the world leapt to believe the worst about the IDF, they wrap it with how awful the IDF was even though it wasn’t a massacre.
- CNN, BBC, and others haven’t even gone that far. The words “Jenin massacre” are in the public consciousness now … the news that there was none will be not reported, copackaged with charges of human rights abuses by members of the IDF, or buried on page 27.
Yeah, I still see that as biased. And that remains my answer to the op.
DSeid - I have never accused you of racism, in this thread or elsewhere. And sure, turn my comment around: “if you want to call a [pro-Israel? - however you would describe yourself] person racist damn well prove that they are.” I stand by that equally.
Not a problem. As soon as I saw your response, I realized I had committed a faux pas, both by trying to inject levity into an obviously emotional and serious argument and in doing it in the way I did.
Oh, I understood your point, pretty much. It’s just I see it being directed at all sides, not just Israel, depending on which news outlet is involved, the prevailing winds of political opinion, and what will sell. Sometimes it is a conscious or unconscious bias. Many times I think it is just Yellow Journalism - Like I said, the word ‘massacre’ is “sexy”. It sells papers and attracts viewers - Often that is the bottom line.
Yes, I do. But a few obvious ( and notorious ) exceptions aside I don’t think there is really a lot of genuine anti-Semitism here at the Straight Dope, though I won’t say there isn’t a little unconscious bias of one sort or another floating around ( most of us have a touch - and again in multiple directions ). And I honestly don’t think the “pro-Palestinian” side of this debate ( for want of a better word, though I don’t think it is always a very good descriptor ) has a numerical superiority, either. My perception only, granted.
Well, the thing is, from where I’m sitting, I can’t be certain it is one. I think obvious anti-Semites do get called out here. But in this case I don’t think it is quite so obvious as you seem to and there is a tradition of giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Are Jews more likely on this board ( or in GD ) to be accused of racism in terms of this debate? I don’t think so. But it is sometimes difficult to fathom a person’s real meaning in a medium like this and our world view and experiences obviously shapes our perceptions. It is not at all unlikely you and I might be looking at the same phrase and getting different messages from it. Which doesn’t necessarily mean I’m the right one.
efrem has said ( more or less ) that he didn’t mean quite what he wrote, which I agree with you was out of line. I’m willing to accept that. Which obviously doesn’t mean you have to.
Yes, sorry about that last. I hesitated a bit before typing it, even though it wasn’t meant as a stinger. It is more that I was thinking at the time that I don’t know you, at least not well, so I can’t with any honesty speak to your inner motivations. I’d throw that disclaimer out with anyone ( well, maybe not now that I’ve thought about it a bit ). But I have to admit I might be a little wrankled if the shoe were on the other foot, so, once again, perhaps not the best choice of words.
If it is any consolation at all, my verbal clumsiness aside, I don’t personally think you’re a racist 
.
- Tamerlane
DSeid: Ran across this in my sunday paper ( yes, I’m frequently a day behind ). Sort of on topic:
In the same issue they did one of those “man-in-the-street” canvas polls on the question, “Is U.S. media coverage of the Middle East crisis biased?” Couldn’t find this on-line, but generally the results ( from seven people asked ) boiled down to - one null answer ( essentially - didn’t bother to answer question properly ), one “media is pro-Arab” answer, three “media is pro-Israel”, two “mixed bag” ( one of which leaned towards a slight pro-Israel slant ).
It’s all ( well, maybe some of it ) in the perception .
- Tamerlane
DSied, I do want to make one thing clear for you before stop your “descend”. You being Jewish has no bearing on this agruement what-so-ever, your religion has never been mentioned or even implied by anyone thoughtout this entire disscusion.
However, I do find it dispecable that you managed to somehow infuse it as a factor in this debate. Being Jewish should not in any way effect your opinion on this subject matter towards one side or the other, if in fact logic(not ethinicy) is your deciding factor. So, you being in fact Jewish is irrelivent to the disscusion, and I would thank it if you stopped trying to make it a factor.
massacres The above should link you to an article about the Sabra and Chatila massacres of 1980. Among other things, it claims the killing continued unabated after the famous 1980 events.
Willful blindness regarding the killing of civilians, I would remind everyone, is a war crime. See, Nuremburg, where it was punishible by death.
In an earlier article Fisk claims the there was extensive physical evidence of IDF material support for the Christian Phalangist killers. (IDF Flares, U.S. Army Rations, more…)
Er…1982.
BTW, as for the OP: I think the jury is still out on “massacre” status for Jenin. Bulldozing houses of civilians shifts the presumption in favor of war crimes or “massacre.” UNTIL, of course, you factor in the use of human shields and booby traps. Not to mention suicide bombers and using ambulances as weapons carriers…
AN article from CNN on the subject can be found here
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html
THe Islamic Jihad fighter is quoted as saying
and
Sounds like some of the destruction was due to the booby traps they set. Sounds like a battle, rather than “massacre”.
Still, no excuses for some of the things that have been reported (if they turn out to be true), the behaviour of some of the soldiers was atrocious.
istara, I apologize if somehow I impled that you had accused me of being racist. Such is not my bone to pick with you. I accuse you of the sin of omission, not comission. It is your silence to the tactic of the charge of racism when leveled against one with a pro-Israeli POV, while being very willing to post on how it is very inappropriate to accuse someone of having antisemitic motive, that I object to. I stayed silent for a day waiting to see if any of the posters who condemn such suspicions voiced by Jews would equally condemn efrem’s behavior. No one did. No one came forward with a condemnation since. I cannot see this as other than a double standard, a bias, and still ask you, what is the motivation for such a double standard? Why does it exist? I appreciate your belated endorsement of an equal standard, but why did it take my explicitly naming you for it to appear?
Israel delays UN mission to Jenin
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1946000/1946446.stm
I think trying to make headlines with “massacre” without plain evidence has caused controversy and undermined to a certain extent the abuses that have occured in Jenin. If major Geneva convention abuses and excesses occured, then that should be self-evident. No idea who jumped the gun with the word “massacre”, be it Palestinians, reporters or some devious conspiracy to undermine credibility.
Not allowing a UN fact finding mission certainly appears suspicious. Here’s a Bloomberg quote: Israel’s government withdrew an invitation for a United Nations fact-finding team to visit Jenin, where Palestinians allege hundreds of civilians were killed in a military offensive against suspected terrorists, Agence France-Presse and Reuters reported.