# Was there an Indian curse that presidents elected in "0" years would die in office? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 14, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601 "2006-04-14T00:12:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![googlebar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ed8c4c/32.png) [@googlebar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/googlebar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/21 "2006-04-20T06:21:18Z")
My high school economics teacher wanted us to believe that Reagan actually did die after being shot by John Hinckley, and for the rest of his presidency he was replaced by… an actor. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/22 "2006-04-20T16:22:09Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > You remember incorrectly. While he was seriously wounded, his heart did not stop, nor was there cessation of brain activity reported. See any of the various, credible reports of the surgery done. Okay, maybe he didn’t die on the table but he was closer to death that we were led to believe at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/23 "2006-04-20T23:46:16Z")
The eeriest thing is that when John Wilkes Booth, Charles J. Guiteau, Leon Czolgosz and Lee Harvey Oswald were captured, every one of them had in their possession a copy of _Catcher in the Rye_. There was also a copy found by the bedside of Florence Harding, who was believed by many to have been the murderer of her husband. All this is particularly astounding since Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley and Harding died between 1865 and 1923, and the book was not even released until 1945, which was…the year F.D.R. died! Then there’s Hinkley. Somewhere out there even as we speak is a boy on a bus with a copy of that book and a one-way ticket to D.C., convinced that he _IS_ the rightful president. When will it’s path of terror stop? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/24 "2006-04-21T02:55:31Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Okay, maybe he didn’t die on the table but he was closer to death that we were led to believe at the time. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/25 "2006-04-21T03:12:25Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Cite? The ER surgeon who was on duty that night. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/26 "2006-04-21T03:27:09Z")
Hinkley used a .22 hollow point, designed to “explode” in a body. He actually missed the president intially but the bullet ricocheted of the limo, striking Reagan an inch below the heart. He lost about five pints of blood in the hour between the shooting and him being wheeled into the OR. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/27 "2006-04-21T03:46:24Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > (I have noticed that no account of this curse mentions Zachary Taylor, the second President to die in office, in July 1850.) Taylor doesn’t count because he wasn’t elected in a year ending in zero. He was elected in 1848. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/28 "2006-04-21T04:26:28Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Cite? It’s been stated many places (and was a plot point in the controversial [The Reagans](http://imdb.com/title/tt0383139/) movie). Nancy herself: > [@Nancy Reagan on \[The Larry King Show 6-12-2004](#): > > ([http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0406/12/lkl.00.html](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0406/12/lkl.00.html))]KING: Was there a period of time you think you’d lose him? > > N. REAGAN: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. > > KING: Early hours? > > N. REAGAN: The – the – you know, the press dwelled on the funny things that he said. … But they didn’t – not on how serious it was. I mean, they couldn’t… > > KING: It was a lot more serious than we thought it was, right? > > N. REAGAN: Oh, much. Oh, much. > > KING: I mean, he was – how close, would you say? I mean, time has evolved. Now how close? Touch and go? > > N. REAGAN: Yes. Oh, yes. > > KING: Loss of blood? > > N. REAGAN: They couldn’t find the bullet. When they did find it, it was a quarter of an inch from his heart. He had lost so much blood, he was so close to going into shock. And if he had, of course, that would have been it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/29 "2006-04-23T01:25:03Z")
> [@lowkey but high locks](#): > > Just some related info. The legendary Shawnee chief Cornstalk (whom I might be distantly related) is said to have placed a curse on Point Plea sant West Virginia with his dieing breath when he and his son were murdered by settlers. The region is said to have bad luck, and all sorts of goings on. There is no evidence of that curse. In fact , in general, most of such curses are entirely made up after the fact. And, although someone might indeed worry himself into an early grave IF he knew about the curse, and IF he beleived in the curse, curses can not shoot you. So, the whole curse thing is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/30 "2006-04-23T07:24:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There is no evidence of that curse. In fact , in general, most of such curses are entirely made up after the fact. And, although someone might indeed worry himself into an early grave IF he knew about the curse, and IF he beleived in the curse, curses can not shoot you. So, the whole curse thing is bullshit. I notice that you say this from the relative safety of the SDMB, or just within the Teeming Millions. I trust you would have enough discretion to watch your mouth when you comment in public. Even so, if you said that to me in public I would walk away without a word, disgusted at your choice of words and obvious contempt for your listeners. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/31 "2006-04-23T16:40:11Z")
Here’s what Cecil sez “The “curse” was popularly attributed to the Indian chief Tecumseh, whose forces were defeated in 1811 at the battle of Tippecanoe by troops led by William Henry Harrison, the first of the seven presidents to die. Harrison also led soldiers against Tecumseh at another battle in 1813 during which the Indian leader was killed. An 1836 play had Tecumseh cursing the white man as he lay dying on the battlefield,\* but there is no evidence that he actually did so.”\* There is no contemporary evidence of either curse, and since it is attributed to two widely different Indian \*chiefs \*(when you’d expect the Shaman to do the cursing, if anyone did), it gets more & more unlikley. I call bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/32 "2006-04-23T16:50:16Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Compare the number of presidents to died in office who were NOT elected in a year ending in 0… Were there any? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/33 "2006-04-23T18:35:02Z")
Zachary Taylor was elected in 1848 but died in 1850. Depending on how the woo-woos want to read that “0” that death year either means something or it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/34 "2006-04-24T01:24:57Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Zachary Taylor was elected in 1848 but died in 1850. Depending on how the woo-woos want to read that “0” that death year either means something or it doesn’t. I missed that earlier. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/35 "2006-04-24T18:00:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Here’s what Cecil sez “The “curse” was popularly attributed to the Indian chief Tecumseh, whose forces were defeated in 1811 at the battle of Tippecanoe by troops led by William Henry Harrison, the first of the seven presidents to die. Harrison also led soldiers against Tecumseh at another battle in 1813 during which the Indian leader was killed. An 1836 play had Tecumseh cursing the white man as he lay dying on the battlefield,\* but there is no evidence that he actually did so.”\* > > There is no contemporary evidence of either curse, and since it is attributed to two widely different Indian \*chiefs \*(when you’d expect the Shaman to do the cursing, if anyone did), it gets more & more unlikley. I call bullshit. Let me put it this way: The English teacher at Lawndale High who read that theme–who is still living, for all I know–must have been impressed by that theme, enough to retrieve it after the news of the assassination ht. Ditto for the student who wrote the theme in 1962; and I suppose all of us kids to whom the teacher read the theme remember it. In any case, I read the commentary at [www.snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com) about the alleged curse. Among other things, Snopes noted that Ripley had listed Harrison, 1840; Lincoln, 1860; Garfield, 1880; Mc Kinley, 1900; and Harding, 1920. The book was published 14 years before FDR died, and Ripley himself died 14 years before the events in Dallas. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/36 "2006-04-24T19:39:05Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Let me put it this way: The English teacher at Lawndale High who read that theme–who is still living, for all I know–must have been impressed by that theme, enough to retrieve it after the news of the assassination ht. Ditto for the student who wrote the theme in 1962; and I suppose all of us kids to whom the teacher read the theme remember it. > In any case, I read the commentary at [www.snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com) about the alleged curse. Among other things, Snopes noted that Ripley had listed Harrison, 1840; Lincoln, 1860; Garfield, 1880; Mc Kinley, 1900; and Harding, 1920. The book was published 14 years before FDR died, and Ripley himself died 14 years before the events in Dallas. From Snopes "Stirring words indeed, but there’s no reason to suppose they were actually uttered. No record of either Tecumseh or Tenskwatawa laying a whammy on American presidents has yet surfaced — it’s all undocumented folktale at this point and is as likely just someone’s imaginative backstory to the inexplicable as it is anything else. " In other words, there is no reason at all to beleive that the “Indian Curse” wasn’t entirely made up until AFTER Harrison, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley and Harding. In fact, the first mention of it in print is 1934. So- those don’t count. Most dudes could have guessed that FDR was going to die in office, that was almost a no-brainer, but even so, FDR did not die during his “year ending in zero” term (neither did Lincoln). Since the “curse” has been publicized, there have been three presidents “under” the “curse”- Kennedy, Reagan & Bush. Of those three, only Kennedy died in office during his “year ending in zero” term. Including subsequent terms where the President died even though he did not die in term where elected in a “tear ending in zero” is bunk- as many Presidents \*terms included \* a “year ending in zero” yet survived- Taylor, Fillmore, Grant, Hayes, Ben. Harrison, McKinley, Taft, Wilson, Hoover and so forth. In other words- the curse is complete and utter **bullshit**. Some writer **in 1934** noticed an interesting coincidence, and it went on from there. Since then, the “curse” has only batted .333. Since WH Harrison, there has been 35 Presidents (including WHH), and 8 have died in office, so the chance of dying in office is around 23%, so guessing that 3 Presidents are going to die and getting one out of three right is almost exactly in line with the expected results. Getting all 3 would have been very odd, I agree. In other words- there never was a curse, there is no evidence at all of a curse actually being uttered, there was just an interesting coincidence spotted _after the fact_, which has failed to keep up with the prediction. Now, if Reagan and Bush had died during their “year ending in 0” term, it’s be VERY spooky. Now, if someone came up with a period mention of the curse \*before \* W.H Harrison died, that’d be very interesting. But there ain’t no such cite. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/37 "2006-04-25T01:52:52Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > The eeriest thing is that when John Wilkes Booth, Charles J. Guiteau, Leon Czolgosz and Lee Harvey Oswald were captured, every one of them had in their possession a copy of _Catcher in the Rye_ I’m very impressed with John Wilkes Booth, Charles Guiteau, and Leon Czolgosz, seeing as _Catcher in the Rye_ was published in 1945. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/38 "2006-04-25T01:56:09Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I’m very impressed with John Wilkes Booth, Charles Guiteau, and Leon Czolgosz, seeing as _Catcher in the Rye_ was published in 1945. Somehow when skimming this thread I missed that **Sampiro** wasn’t being serious. I need some sleep. Or just a brain. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2006, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/39 "2006-04-25T10:57:28Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I notice that you say this from the relative safety of the SDMB, or just within the Teeming Millions. I trust you would have enough discretion to watch your mouth when you comment in public. Even so, if you said that to me in public I would walk away without a word, disgusted at your choice of words and obvious contempt for your listeners. ☹ Huh? I can’t see anything objectionable in **DrDeth** ’s post, and certainly nothing he should be afraid of uttering in public. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/40 "2006-04-26T00:05:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Including subsequent terms where the President died even though he did not die in term where elected in a “tear ending in zero” is bunk- as many Presidents \*terms included \* a “year ending in zero” yet survived- Taylor, Fillmore, Grant, Hayes, Ben. Harrison, McKinley, Taft, Wilson, Hoover and so forth. Taylor and McKinley would have been happy with that news. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601.md?page=3)