# Was there an Indian curse that presidents elected in "0" years would die in office? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 14, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601 "2006-04-14T00:12:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/41 "2006-04-26T15:11:02Z")
Even if I were going to go all woo-woo about this, I wouldn’t include Zach. Ol’ Blood ‘n’ Guts. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/42 "2006-04-26T17:46:22Z")
So Reagan _was_, by the standards of 1840, fatally wounded (i.e. he could never have been saved by 19th century medicine), so that could mean he still fits the curse. There’s also a theory that his skin was protected by his mother’s love. Now the question is: suppose Bush survives past 2008, BUT Al Gore gets shot this year or next. Would _that_ convince people who really won the election? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/43 "2006-04-27T00:38:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > From Snopes "Stirring words indeed, but there’s no reason to suppose they were actually uttered. No record of either Tecumseh or Tenskwatawa laying a whammy on American presidents has yet surfaced — it’s all undocumented folktale at this point and is as likely just someone’s imaginative backstory to the inexplicable as it is anything else. " > > In other words, there is no reason at all to beleive that the “Indian Curse” wasn’t entirely made up until AFTER Harrison, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley and Harding. In fact, the first mention of it in print is 1934. So- those don’t count. Most dudes could have guessed that FDR was going to die in office, that was almost a no-brainer, but even so, FDR did not die during his “year ending in zero” term (neither did Lincoln). Since the “curse” has been publicized, there have been three presidents “under” the “curse”- Kennedy, Reagan & Bush. Of those three, only Kennedy died in office during his “year ending in zero” term. > > Including subsequent terms where the President died even though he did not die in term where elected in a “tear ending in zero” is bunk- as many Presidents \*terms included \* a “year ending in zero” yet survived- Taylor, Fillmore, Grant, Hayes, Ben. Harrison, McKinley, Taft, Wilson, Hoover and so forth. > > In other words- the curse is complete and utter **bullshit**. Some writer **in 1934** noticed an interesting coincidence, and it went on from there. Since then, the “curse” has only batted .333. Since WH Harrison, there has been 35 Presidents (including WHH), and 8 have died in office, so the chance of dying in office is around 23%, so guessing that 3 Presidents are going to die and getting one out of three right is almost exactly in line with the expected results. Getting all 3 would have been very odd, I agree. > > In other words- there never was a curse, there is no evidence at all of a curse actually being uttered, there was just an interesting coincidence spotted _after the fact_, which has failed to keep up with the prediction. Now, if Reagan and Bush had died during their “year ending in 0” term, it’s be VERY spooky. > > Now, if someone came up with a period mention of the curse \*before \* W.H Harrison died, that’d be very interesting. But there ain’t no such cite. I wish you could say that to the girl who wrote that theme in 1962. The teacher didn’t give us her name, but the fact that such a prediction came true I am hard put to ignore (the theme began, “If a certain historical pattern holds true, John F. Kennedy will not live out his term of office.”). I had not put any credence in an _"Indian_ curse;" writer-artist Will Eisner mentioned a “curse” in a book titled _Odd Facts,_ which he wrote in 1975, without specifying an ethnic origin. It said that ‘Presidents elected every 20 years since 1840 have died in office.’ As for Zachary Taylor, I understand that he had considerable contempt for Indians and may thus have been the target of a different prophetic pronouncement. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/44 "2006-04-28T17:07:20Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I wish you could say that to the girl who wrote that theme in 1962. The teacher didn’t give us her name, but the fact that such a prediction came true I am hard put to ignore (the theme began, “If a certain historical pattern holds true, John F. Kennedy will not live out his term of office.”). > . Since 23% of Presidents have died in Office, getting one out of three right isn’t so amazing. Especially if you consider how many false phrophecies there have been. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/45 "2006-04-28T20:49:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Since 23% of Presidents have died in Office, getting one out of three right isn’t so amazing. Especially if you consider how many false phrophecies there have been. Be my guest–list them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/46 "2006-05-01T16:45:15Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Be my guest–list them. 🙂 Since WH Harrison (the so-called start of the “cusre” there have been 35 Presidents, right? [http://www.presidentsusa.net/presvplist.html](http://www.presidentsusa.net/presvplist.html) 8 have died in office, 7 “under the curse” > **[Presidential 20-Year Death Curse](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-curse-of-tecumseh/)** > > Does a death curse threaten U.S. presidents elected in years evenly divisible by 20? 1840 … William Henry Harrison 1860 … Abraham Lincoln 1880 … James A. Garfield 1900 … William McKinley 1920 … Warren G. Harding 1940 … Franklin D. Roosevelt 1960 … John F. Kennedy - Zachary Taylor (1850) What’s 8/35? = .228, or 23%. I didn’t think the math was that hard. Especially since the list has been given here along with the Snopes link.😛 ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/47 "2006-05-01T19:51:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Since WH Harrison (the so-called start of the “cusre” there have been 35 Presidents, right? > [US Presidents](http://www.presidentsusa.net/presvplist.html) > > 8 have died in office, 7 “under the curse” > [http://www.snopes.com/history/american/curse.asp](http://www.snopes.com/history/american/curse.asp) > > 1840 … William Henry Harrison > 1860 … Abraham Lincoln > 1880 … James A. Garfield > 1900 … William McKinley > 1920 … Warren G. Harding > 1940 … Franklin D. Roosevelt > 1960 … John F. Kennedy > > - Zachary Taylor (1850) > > What’s 8/35? = .228, or 23%. > > I didn’t think the math was that hard. Especially since the list has been given here along with the Snopes link.😛 FYI, I asked for the _false_ prophecies. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/48 "2006-05-01T20:04:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Since WH Harrison (the so-called start of the “cusre” there have been 35 Presidents, right? > [US Presidents](http://www.presidentsusa.net/presvplist.html) > > 8 have died in office, 7 “under the curse” > [http://www.snopes.com/history/american/curse.asp](http://www.snopes.com/history/american/curse.asp) > > 1840 … William Henry Harrison > 1860 … Abraham Lincoln > 1880 … James A. Garfield > 1900 … William McKinley > 1920 … Warren G. Harding > 1940 … Franklin D. Roosevelt > 1960 … John F. Kennedy > > - Zachary Taylor (1850) > > What’s 8/35? = .228, or 23%. > > I didn’t think the math was that hard. Especially since the list has been given here along with the Snopes link.😛 You hafta admit, all of those years ending in “0” in a weird coincidink. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/49 "2006-05-01T21:36:31Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > FYI, I asked for the _false_ prophecies. "Quote: Originally Posted by DrDeth Since 23% of Presidents have died in Office, getting one out of three right isn’t so amazing. Especially if you consider how many false prophecies there have been. Be my guest–list \*them. \* " “them” not specified. 😛 **Annie-Xmas** - not that much as the numbers are manipulated- as Snopes puts it"Also interesting is the notion that the curse is a prescient one, as two presidents who won elections in years ending in ‘0’ — Lincoln and Roosevelt — did not die until after beginning subsequent terms in office. Apparently the curse foresaw re-election for both of them." If you think about it, a President with two terms has a pretty good chance of being elected in some “0” year, due to the frequency we have of elections, and the fact that being President isn’t a very safe job. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/50 "2006-05-02T07:49:47Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] "Quote: Originally Posted by DrDeth Since 23% of Presidents have died in Office, getting one out of three right isn’t so amazing. Especially if you consider how many false prophecies there have been. Be my guest–list \*them. \* " “them” not specified. 😛 :Sigh: By “them” I mean “the false prophecies.” Is that so hard to figure out? So _what_ part of your post answers my question, if any? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2006, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/51 "2006-05-02T14:54:23Z")
[QUOTE=dougie\_monty] > [@DrDeth](#): > > "Quote: > Originally Posted by DrDeth > Since 23% of Presidents have died in Office, getting one out of three right isn’t so amazing. Especially if you consider how many false prophecies there have been. > > Be my guest–list \*them. \* " > > “them” not specified. 😛 > > :Sigh: > By “them” I mean “the false prophecies.” Is that so hard to figure out? > So _what_ part of your post answers my question, if any? All of them. Every single prophecy ever by mortal man has been a false prophesy. Even those that happened to co-incide with what really happened were false, just a lucky coinidence. Hell, you’re a Doper, you should know that. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/52 "2006-05-03T06:15:36Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > All of them. Every single prophecy ever by mortal man has been a false prophesy. Even those that happened to co-incide with what really happened were false, just a lucky coinidence. Hell, you’re a Doper, you should know that. That is not what I meant and you know it. I did not invite ytou to expound on the validity of prophecies in general. When you first mentioneed _false_ prophecies I understood that to mean that you are making a distinction between the one and the other, not slyly hinting that _all_ prophecies are false. You have dipped your metaphoric pen into an inkwell emblazoned with a skull and crossbones. If I had wanted a poison-pen answer I would have asked for one. I guess giving me a _civil_ answer is beyond your ken. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/53 "2006-05-03T13:38:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I remember the curse quite well from 1963. I never remember it being called an Indian curse, though. Another spooky parallel was between Kennedy and Lincoln - among other things Lincoln’s secretary was named Kennedy and Kennedy’s was named Lincoln. > Coincidence is amazing, isn’t it. A week before he died, Lincoln was in Monroe, Maryland. A week before he died, Kennedy was in Marilyn Monroe. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/54 "2006-05-03T15:12:53Z")
[QUOTE=dougie\_monty] > [@DrDeth](#): > > I guess giving me a _civil_ answer is beyond your ken. Ask a civil question, get a civil answer. Ask a smart-ass question, get a smart-ass answer. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/55 "2006-05-04T08:25:08Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Ask a smart-ass question, get a smart-ass answer. Considering the quality of your replies, it sounds more like “Monkey see, monkey do,” or, more accurately, “Monkey read, monkey reply.” 😛 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kodeureum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kodeureum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kodeureum)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/56 "2006-05-04T22:19:17Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > And yet Dubya is still with us. If he lives for two more years, the curse must be gone. The curse won’t really be gone, he’ll just be out of office. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/57 "2006-05-05T01:05:51Z")
Bloody hell, Bush _is_ the curse, having taken on golem form. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601/58 "2006-05-05T07:28:59Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Bloody hell, Bush _is_ the curse, having taken on golem form. Golem?! That’s from _Jewish_ literature! Now \*\*there’s \*\* a lost tribe for you… 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-an-indian-curse-that-presidents-elected-in-0-years-would-die-in-office/352601.md?page=2)