# Was there any fighting in these international incidents? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 20, 2000, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271 "2000-07-20T19:34:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/1 "2000-07-20T19:34:25Z")
Okay, so there are a couple of historical incidents I know a little about, but for some reason I’ve never been able to figure out if there was any fighting. I mean deadly fighting, like with guns and bombs and other nasty things. 1. Perry’s expedition to Tokyo, 19th Century. Okay, this was the event where a big U.S. fleet sailed to Japan and eventually got a really sweet trade deal. Previous to that expedition, the Japanese had had a closed economy. This raises the slightly creepy question of, Did the U.S. Navy sail in and start blasting, or did the Japanese just decide to humor us since, heck, we did have a nice Navy and all, and what’s so bad about a little trade? 2. Anglo-Soviet joint invasion of Iran, World War II. Okay, so they wanted to open a transport route from the Soviet Union to the outside world, and Iran was in the way. The Iranians would not logically be pleased by foreigners just marching in and taking over, but I’ve never figured out whether there were any battles. Shooting or none? 3. Operation Torch landings into French colonies, 1942. Obviously we went there to drive the Germans and Italians out of North Africa. I don’t want to get into a semantic debate over whether Vichy France was an Axis country or a neutral country. My question is, did the Allies and pro-Axis Frenchmen inflict many casualties on each other? I had a bunch of other similar questions but I’ve forgotten them. I confess that I’m a teensy bit embarrassed at having tried to gather this from history but never figured it out. I mean, you’d think the _first_ thing you’d hear about a certain historical event would be Whether or Not It Was a War. ---
**Author:** ![tcburnett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@tcburnett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tcburnett)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/2 "2000-07-20T19:58:36Z")
1. Perry didn’t get into an armed conflict. Read all about it at the Perry Memorial Monument: [http://www.city.yokosuka.kanagawa.jp/speed/mypage/m-imajo/jlistown/townguide/folder/perry-e.html](http://www.city.yokosuka.kanagawa.jp/speed/mypage/m-imajo/jlistown/townguide/folder/perry-e.html) 2. Iran was an ally. We bribed the Shah. Find a single Iranian man or woman at: [http://www.iraniansingles.com/](http://www.iraniansingles.com/) 3. There WERE casualties. I don’t know what you consider ‘many’. See:Operation Torch, by William B. Bruer. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/3 "2000-07-20T20:37:51Z")
As tc said you can “Read all about it at the Perry Memorial Monument.” Or you can see the musical “Pacific Overtures,” which is all about the Perry expedition and the subsequent imperialization of Japan. [Editorial hijack: See, that’s why Sondheim is a great songwriter. While the rest of the nominations in the “Best Lyricist” thread write songs about picking up foozies in smokey bars, he writes about the 19th century subversion of the Japanese culture – from the Japanese point of view. The man’s a genius, that’s all. Editorial over. Thanks for listening.] ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/4 "2000-07-20T21:15:44Z")
Regarding Operation Torch, the only link I could find is [The World At War – French Empire Timeline](http://worldatwar.net/timeline/france/empire40-45.html). Highlights are posted below: > [@](#): > > Operation Torch - American forces land at Algiers, Oran and several points along the Moroccan coast. Vichy troops put up fierce resistance at Casablanca, Port Lyautey and Fedala in Morocco. U.S. Consul General Robert Murphy’s extensive network of operatives in Algiers, by General Mast, is unable to prevent resistance to landing by Algiers garrison. General DeGaulle broadcast appeal for general uprising to aid the Allied effort. Gaullists manage to seize a few government buildings and hold Admiral Darlan captive for a shortime but being put down by Vichy police. General Giraud having been picked to take command of French troops once they have surrended is brought to Algiers from Gibraltar on a British submarine. > > _November 9_ / Algeria - Admiral Darlan order the Algiers garrison to cease fire but allows the Vichy’s defense to continue elsewhere in North Africa. Pitched battle rages at Oran. > > Tunisia - Admiral Platon arrives in Tunis with orders for the Resident General, Admiral Esteva and the Port Director of Bizerte, Admiral Derrien, to permit German troop landings. German paratroops land unopposed later in the day near El Alaouina. > > _November 10_ / Algiers -Admiral Darlan acting on the advice of General Juin orders a general cease fire of Vichy troops throughout French North Africa. General Mark Clark upon receiving news of Darlan’s cease fire order, announces that “all civil and military authorities will be maintained in their present functions.”. General Giraud arrives at Dar Mahidine and is received by Darlan who offers to turn command over to him. Giraud agrees to accept Darlan’s leadership with proviso that Giraud be named commander of the troops. Darlan orders General Barre, commander of French forces in Tunisia to group his forces in vicinity of Medjez el Bab and prepare engage the Germans. > > _November 11_ / **Fighting between Vichy and Allied troops ends with approximately 3000 casualties on each side.** (The **bold** emphasis added by me) ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/5 "2000-07-20T21:37:17Z")
Perry was definitely prepared to start blasting away at the Japanese if need be. It wasn’t an easy mission, sailing around the world to a place where you have never been and trying to negotiate with people who don’t want you around and have been openly hostile to visitors before. ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/6 "2000-07-20T21:40:36Z")
There was heavy opposition to most of the **TORCH** landings in North Africa. Here’s a link giving the [Naval Overview](http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsRNMed3.htm) of the landings, and although it includes damage by German and Italian action, certainly points out that the landings were opposed. Something like 107,000 troops were landed, roughly in the proportion 75% US to 25% British. I have heard rumours–proto-ULs, I guess, that some British units were given US uniforms and equipment for the landing, in order to emphasize the US’s role. Without hard facts, I’d take that with a grain of salt. I haven’t been able to find a casualty figure for **TORCH** , but here’s a link to the official [US Army history](http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/amh/AMH-22.htm). **Addendum** : just saw **mattk’s** post, with 3000 casualty figure. Good digging, **mattk**! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/7 "2000-07-20T22:05:26Z")
**BobT** , can you provide a cite for the notion that Perry was prepared to start a war? I’m not actually doubting that as a possibility. I suspect, however, that he (and the U.S. administration) did not feel that it would be necessary. Of course, the _reason_ they were prepared to assume that the mission would succeed was based on Britain’s efforts in China eleven years earlier. When Great Britain decided that it was time for China to help enhance the wealth of the British Empire, they sent a fleet up the river to the Great Canal which provided an enormous amount of the internal trade traffic and most of the administrative communications within China. Once they blockaded the canal, China was forced to its knees, and capitulated on the issue of the trade concessions demanded by Britain. Japan would have known of the Sino-British incident (and the U.S. certainly knew of it). I was always under the impression that we never thought we would need to open a single gun port, simply letting the British example do our work for us. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/8 "2000-07-20T22:44:42Z")
Re: 2. Anglo-Soviet joint invasion of Iran, World War II. Okay, so they wanted to open a transport route from the Soviet Union to the outside world, and Iran was in the way. The Iranians would not logically be pleased by foreigners just marching in and taking over, but I’ve never figured out whether there were any battles. Shooting or none? There may have been if the Allies gone in without intelligence preparation. At lease one Iranian general suspected of Nazi sympathies was neutalized prior to the takeover (cite: Eastern Approaches by Fitzroy Maclean, which also includes his memoirs of action with the SAS in North Africa & with Tito’s partisans) ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2000, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/9 "2000-07-21T00:12:49Z")
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to imply that Perry was ready to go to war, but he was very careful and his ships were armed. However, he obviously didn’t want to do that and he would have had a hard time accomplishing anything more than pissing off the shogun and keeping his crew alive. ---
**Author:** ![warinner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@warinner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warinner)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2000, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-any-fighting-in-these-international-incidents/26271/10 "2000-07-21T01:05:49Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Anglo-Soviet joint invasion of Iran, World War II. Okay, so they wanted to open a transport route from the Soviet Union to the outside world, and Iran was in the way. The Iranians would not logically be pleased by foreigners just marching in and taking over, but I’ve never figured out whether there were any battles. Shooting or none? There was some shooting. There was fighting around Basra, Khurramshahr, Ahwaz, Kermanshah and the Paitak Pass. British casualties were light: 22 killed and 42 wounded. Given that the Germans were attempting to stir up trouble in Iran as they had done before in Iraq, the British were lucky that the operations were such a walkover. Andrew Warinner