# Was there communion wine during prohibition? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704 "2004-12-14T01:28:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/1 "2004-12-14T01:28:21Z")
Something I just wondered…during the era of US prohibition, were churches and other religious places allowed to use alcohol in their rituals? In that vein, if they were, then were there a lot of people trying to claimto be a church to get away with illegal boozing? ---
**Author:** ![phaishazamkhan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@phaishazamkhan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phaishazamkhan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/2 "2004-12-14T01:36:38Z")
A quick [Google Search](http://www.epicurious.com/drinking/wine_dictionary/entry?id=7618) finds that sacramental wines were not forbidden. Not surprising since most Native American sects are allowed peyote as a sacrament. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/3 "2004-12-14T01:38:31Z")
Per this [site](http://www.thebestlinks.com/Prohibition.html): > [@](#): > > Some wine was still produced in the U.S. but was only available through government warehouses for use by churches at communion. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/4 "2004-12-14T01:41:43Z")
> [@phaishazamkhan](#): > > A quick [Google Search](http://www.epicurious.com/drinking/wine_dictionary/entry?id=7618) finds that sacramental wines were not forbidden. Not surprising since most Native American sects are allowed peyote as a sacrament. Actually, the peyote exemption is JUST for the Native American Church. This exemption on its face seems blatantly unconstitutional. Why shouldn’t other religions be allowed to use peyote to worship their god? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/5 "2004-12-14T01:44:05Z")
Yes, some manufacturers had special licenses to produce wine for use in religious ceremonies. Christian Brothers and Mogen David are the two that spring immediately to mind. A documentary I saw once claimed that much less abuse of the dispensation took place than you would expect - a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of alcoholic beverages smuggled or manufactured illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/6 "2004-12-14T01:48:59Z")
All the communion wine I’ve ever had has been quite bitter, and not the kind of thing I’d drink if I was looking to get hammered. I imagine that this might have something to do with the lack of abuse of the church exception. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/7 "2004-12-14T02:25:01Z")
To answer such questions, we examine the text of the immortal [Volstead Act](http://tucnak.fsv.cuni.cz/~calda/Documents/1920s/Volstead.html), which was the implementing legislation for Prohibition. Wherein we find, > [@](#): > > Nothing in this title shall be held to apply to the manufacture, sale, transportation, importation, possession, or distribution of wine for sacramental purposes, or like religious rites, except section 6 (save as the same requires a permit to purchase) and section 10 hereof, and the provisions of this Act prescribing penalties for the violation of either of said sections. No person to whom a permit may be issued to manufacture, transport, import, or sell wines for sacramental purposes or like religious rites shall sell, barter, exchange, or furnish any such to any person not a rabbi, minister of the gospel, priest, or an officer duly authorized for the purpose by any church or congregation, nor to any such except upon an application duly subscribed by him, which application, authenticated as regulations may prescribe, shall be filed and preserved by the seller. The head of any conference or diocese or other ecclesiastical jurisdiction may designate any rabbi, minister, or priest to supervise the manufacture of wine to be used for the purposes and rites in this section mentioned, and the person so designated may, in the discretion of the commissioner, be granted a permit to supervise such manufacture. (Sections 6 and 10 required persons manufacturing sacramental wine to get a permit and keep records.) I’m not aware of any widespread abuse of this exemption. Bootlegging was easier. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/8 "2004-12-14T02:50:40Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Something I just wondered…during the era of US prohibition, were churches and other religious places allowed to use alcohol in their rituals? In that vein, if they were, then were there a lot of people trying to claimto be a church to get away with illegal boozing? There are some fundalmentalist sects that do NOT use wine with alcoholic content. The Bible also describes ‘wine’ as the ‘fruit of the vine’ and is considered by these folks as to be simply the pressed juice concentated by evaporation to preserve it. Possibly the explanation of the converting of water to ‘wine’ at the wedding in Galilee. There exists considerable controversey on the subject of wine and fruit of the vine in the N.T. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/9 "2004-12-14T02:56:20Z")
The church I went to as a kid used grape juice. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/10 "2004-12-14T02:58:32Z")
> [@Freddy the Pig](#): > > I’m not aware of any widespread abuse of this exemption. Bootlegging was easier. No, at least not bootlegging in the way most people use that word. [http://www.epicurious.com/drinking/wine\_dictionary/entry?id=7618](http://www.epicurious.com/drinking/wine_dictionary/entry?id=7618) “In January 1920, the U.S. Federal Prohibition Law was enacted through the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution. This law prohibited the manufacture, transportation, or sale of alcoholic beverages. It wasn’t until almost 14 years later, in December 1933, that Prohibition was repealed by the Twenty-first Amendment. During Prohibition, certain activities were sanctioned, including home winemaking and wineries being allowed to make sacramental wines. During this period, wine consumption actually increased.” I can’t find a specific cite, but during Prohibition there was an exemption for home winemaking so long as the amounts were low, as in for personal consumption. Note that the religious exemption was _just_ for wines. People didn’t need to abuse that exemption, as the law otherwise allowed home winemaking. Besides, even if home winemaking had been made totally illegal, this basically would have been an unenforceable law. All it takes to make wine at home is fruit juice and some yeast. Toss yeast in fruit juice, let it sit around for a while, and voila you have got wine. Almost all commercial bootlegging was with alcoholic beverages other than wine. The reason being that it was easier for people to buy liquor from a bootlegger than have to assemble and run a still at home. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/11 "2004-12-14T03:01:47Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > There are some fundalmentalist sects that do NOT use wine with alcoholic content. > The Bible also describes ‘wine’ as the ‘fruit of the vine’ and is considered by these folks as to be simply the pressed juice concentated by evaporation to preserve it. > Possibly the explanation of the converting of water to ‘wine’ at the wedding in Galilee. > There exists considerable controversey on the subject of wine and fruit of the vine in the N.T. It’s not merely “some fundamentalist sects” – Methodists, for example, use grape juice. _Oinos_ in Koiné Greek means the juice of the grape, whether fresh or fermented into wine. Prior to Mr. Welsh inventing a way to pasteurize grape juice, however, the only way to preserve it was to turn it into wine – otherwise it spoils rapidly, so it’s a reasonable guess that any time _oinos_ is referenced, it means no-kidding wine, with the rare exception (outside Scripture in classical Greek) of someone taking a drink of _oinos_ fresh from the grape press. As **spingears** says, however, there are those who argue, for one reason or another, that the Bible couldn’t have meant wine, and who come up with ingenious reasons why the term _really_ means something else. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/12 "2004-12-14T03:05:51Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It’s not merely “some fundamentalist sects” – Methodists, for example, use grape juice. _Oinos_ in Koiné Greek means the juice of the grape, whether fresh or fermented into wine. Prior to Mr. Welsh inventing a way to pasteurize grape juice, however, the only way to preserve it was to turn it into wine – otherwise it spoils rapidly, so it’s a reasonable guess that any time _oinos_ is referenced, it means no-kidding wine, with the rare exception (outside Scripture in classical Greek) of someone taking a drink of _oinos_ fresh from the grape press. And as refrigerators were all kinds of scarce in the Middle East 2 millennia ago, it wouldn’t take long at all for freshly pressed grape juice to ferment. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/13 "2004-12-14T06:02:02Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > There are some fundalmentalist sects that do NOT use wine with alcoholic content. > The Bible also describes ‘wine’ as the ‘fruit of the vine’ and is considered by these folks as to be simply the pressed juice concentated by evaporation to preserve it. > Possibly the explanation of the converting of water to ‘wine’ at the wedding in Galilee. > There exists considerable controversey on the subject of wine and fruit of the vine in the N.T. To add to Polycarp’s fine answer, let’s look at the biblical data: First, the supposition that the water made wine in Cana was simply grape juice concentrate: > [@](#): > > John2:7-10 – Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” How does one have ‘too much to drink’ of grape juice so as not to be able to tell a good batch of grape juice from a lesser batch of grape juice? This story only makes sense if the story is referring to alcoholic wine. Here, Jesus defends his actions against his critics: > [@](#): > > Matthew 11:16-19 – “To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others: “ ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.’ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions.” How can one drink only grape juice and wind up with a reputation (from his critics) as being a drunkard? Obviously, at the parties Jesus attended, he drank alcoholic wine, and in no small quantities. The earliest written account of the Lord’s Supper (at least, how the first generation of Christians celebrated it) comes from Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 11: > [@](#): > > 17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not! Obviously, these first Christians had no problem with alchoholic wine present at the Lord’s Supper, which would be a big and uncommented-upon break with a supposed tradition of tea-totalling Jesus. In the first quote above, we see John the Baptist had the reputation of not drinking alchoholic wine. This is further commented upon in the infancy narrative in Luke, Chaper 1: > [@](#): > > 11Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. Notice the part about wine or **other fermented drink**. So, here is a use of that word for ‘pressed grape fruit’ used with the assumption that it means ‘fermented pressed grape fruit.’ Also note that this lack of imbibing any spirits is a sign of holiness. But throughout the Gospels, Jesus is always presented as being greater and holier than John the Baptist. If Jesus, too, didn’t drink any alcohol, don’t you think that that would have been specifically mentioned, like it was for John the Baptist? The idea that Jesus didn’t drink any alchohol and that the wine at the Last Supper was non-alchoholic is a recent invention (in the last hundred years) of a Protestan holiness and temperance movement. Their biblical ‘scholarship’ is resoundly rejected and easily refuted by the vastly overwhelming majority of biblical scholars and Christian denominations. It is not really controversial at all, except for a small group who have a prejudicial belief about alchohol and blind themselves to irrefutable facts so as to bolster their personal beliefs. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/14 "2004-12-14T08:23:41Z")
[Here’s the Staff Report by the Straight Dope Science Advisory Board…](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/maltarwine.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/15 "2004-12-14T13:15:35Z")
during my American History course, the Prohibition project I worked on with a team of other students turned up references to the use of sacremental wines, & misuse was actually quite common. Total production of “sacramental” wines increased to 7-10X pre-Prohibition levels, & there were numerous accounts of religious leaders persuaded, bribed or threatened into cooperation. In addition, many laypersons working in the church bureaucracies abused ther trusts. Much of this wine was distilled into brandy for resale. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/16 "2004-12-14T14:22:47Z")
> [@moriah](#): > > The idea that Jesus didn’t drink any alchohol and that the wine at the Last Supper was non-alchoholic is a recent invention (in the last hundred years) of a Protestan holiness and temperance movement. Their biblical ‘scholarship’ is resoundly rejected and easily refuted by the vastly overwhelming majority of biblical scholars and Christian denominations. And to offer a data-point at the opposite end of the spectrum: Altar wine for the Roman Catholic eucharist is required by the RCC to be fermented, with one accommodation for the sake of communicants with health issues: they can use raw unprocessed _must_, that is, the grape juice stock for winemaking, which will likely contain a trace of fermentation already. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/17 "2004-12-14T15:22:06Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Total production of “sacramental” wines increased to 7-10X pre-Prohibition levels, & there were numerous accounts of religious leaders persuaded, bribed or threatened into cooperation. :eek: I shouldn’t be surprised, I suppose. If people will pay $8 for a beer at the ballpark, it stands to reason they’d be swilling sacramental hootch. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/18 "2004-12-14T15:26:17Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > All the communion wine I’ve ever had has been quite bitter, and not the kind of thing I’d drink if I was looking to get hammered. I imagine that this might have something to do with the lack of abuse of the church exception. Our church uses a very good port, which is what you might expect from a bunch of Whiskeypalians. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/19 "2004-12-14T15:30:04Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > Yes, some manufacturers had special licenses to produce wine for use in religious ceremonies. Christian Brothers and Mogen David are the two that spring immediately to mind. A documentary I saw once claimed that much less abuse of the dispensation took place than you would expect - a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of alcoholic beverages smuggled or manufactured illegally. That’s balloon juice. 😛 [http://colfa.utsa.edu:16080/users/jreynolds/Textbooks/Prohibition/Prohibition%20Garraty%201991.htm](http://colfa.utsa.edu:16080/users/jreynolds/Textbooks/Prohibition/Prohibition%20Garraty%201991.htm) > [@](#): > > The manufacture of wine for religious ceremonies was legal; consumption of sacramental wine jumped by 800,000 gallons during the first two years of prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704/20 "2004-12-14T18:12:56Z")
Whether home winemaking was legal or not, it certainly existed to some degree. My grandfather made large quantities of wine both during and after Prohibition, most of which he sold or gave to his neighbors. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-communion-wine-during-prohibition/279704.md?page=2)