# Was there ever a time when you didn’t know the following: When you make a right turn at a red light, you have to come to a complete stop first **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500 "2021-06-02T20:57:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/21 "2021-06-03T13:08:51Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > it seems like a lot of cyclists in my state(New Hampshire) are not aware that they are supposed to obey stop signs and red lights as well and come to a complete stop. And not just drive through them even when making a right turn. > **[Idaho stop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop)** > > The Idaho stop is the common name for laws that allow bicyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign. It first became law in Idaho in 1982, but was not adopted elsewhere until Delaware adopted a limited stop-as-yield law, the "Delaware Yield", in 2017. Arkansas was the second US state to legalize both stop-as-yield and red-light-as-stop in April 2019. Studies in Delaware and Idaho have shown significant decreases in crashes at stop-controlled intersections. > The... Hopefully, that will change as more states adopt the Idaho Stop. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/22 "2021-06-03T13:21:52Z")
I was taught, Right on red, means the traffic light is treated like a stop sign. Stop and then turn if the road is clear. Right on red is the default in my state. They post a sign at the intersection indicating when its not allowed. I had trouble as a beginning driver. I got drivers behind me upset because I waited for the light. It took me awhile to remember right on red. ---
**Author:** ![Jumpbass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jumpbass/32/147_2.png) [@Jumpbass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jumpbass)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/23 "2021-06-03T13:56:14Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > To this day, I still don’t know what the law is about this (in California). Anybody, fight my iggorance? I asked a couple of cops in a Starbucks about this once. They said it’s fine. To add to the conversation, the requirement is to stop _behind_ the limit line or crosswalk before creeping forward to see if traffic is clear. Not stopping _on_ the crosswalk. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/24 "2021-06-03T14:16:22Z")
Always knew. I took drivers ED so I could get the insurance discount before I got my license. I wish people knew you don’t need to stop when it’s a protected right turn. So annoying. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/25 "2021-06-03T17:15:15Z")
Knew since driving however… I still don’t know where and when to legally stop for that turn. Example, I’m turning right on red (or left on red from one way to one way streets - public service announcement: also legal). But I’m behind a car that is also doing the same. They stop usually over the stop line and me stopped behind them. When they go, if I’m clear I follow, as I was stopped behind them, and I was reasonably at the stop line (again they were over). I feel that meets the requirement of the law but IDK. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/26 "2021-06-03T18:08:17Z")
> [@Something](#): > > My question is 1) Was there ever a time since you started driving That you didn’t know this law and 2) If there was, when did you finally learn it? I always knew it was a law that a full stop is required at a red light. Beyond that, my experience was a bit different. In New York City, where I grew up and learned to drive, and still live, right turns on red are not allowed. There are a tiny, trivial number of intersections where the rule is different. I mean, like six, in the whole city. I still have to be reminded, when driving outside the city, that I can turn right, after a full stop, on a red light. So I guess that means that I _didn’t_ always know that when you make a right turn at a red light, you have to come to a complete stop first, because I didn’t know (and still forget) that the right turn is allowed at all. ---
**Author:** ![Something](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Something](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Something)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/27 "2021-06-03T18:16:18Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > In New York City, where I grew up and learned to drive, and still live, right turns on red are not allowed. There are a tiny, trivial number of intersections where the rule is different. I mean, like six, in the whole city. “I don’t want to move to a city where the only cultural advantage is being able to make a right turn on a red light.” Woody Allen, when Annie Hall asks him to consider moving to Los Angeles. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/28 "2021-06-03T18:22:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Example, I’m turning right on red (or left on red from one way to one way streets - public service announcement: also legal). But I’m behind a car that is also doing the same. They stop usually over the stop line and me stopped behind them. When they go, if I’m clear I follow, as I was stopped behind them, and I was reasonably at the stop line (again they were over). I feel that meets the requirement of the law but IDK. I am not an expert on this law, but I suspect that you’re not doing it correctly. My understanding is that, with a right on red, you are effectively treating the stoplight as a stop sign, in which the other road (onto which you’re turning) does not have a stop sign. You’re expected to come to a complete stop when it is “your turn” (i.e., you’re the first one in line at the light), and only proceed with your turn when you can see that the way is safe for _you_ – and the fact that the guy in front of you stopped halfway into the intersection doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/29 "2021-06-03T18:25:47Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I had trouble as a beginning driver. I got drivers behind me upset because I waited for the light. It took me awhile to remember right on red. It’s not required that you take a right on red if available. Those drivers were being rude, assuming they honked at you. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/30 "2021-06-03T19:11:38Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > …You’re expected to come to a complete stop when it is “your turn” (i.e., you’re the first one in line at the light), and only proceed with your turn when you can see that the way is safe for _you_ – and the fact that the guy in front of you stopped halfway into the intersection doesn’t change that. Well it was ‘my turn’ the other guy actually ran the stop sign and stopped somewhere else (or could have stopped, but since moved forward). I drove up to and stopped where I was suppose to and was waiting where I should for my way to be clear and safe to proceed. I thank yo but will wait for a more legal opinion 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/31 "2021-06-03T19:43:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Example, I’m turning right on red (or left on red from one way to one way streets - public service announcement: also legal). But I’m behind a car that is also doing the same. They stop usually over the stop line and me stopped behind them. When they go, if I’m clear I follow, as I was stopped behind them, and I was reasonably at the stop line (again they were over). I feel that meets the requirement of the law but IDK. My feeling is that you are probably right, technically. You as supposed to stop before the line and you did. You are supposed to wait until the intersection is clear of traffic and you did. But if a cop tags you they are simply going to say that you failed to stop at the sign because they won’t have seen you stop. Maybe if you have a dash cam, you can show that you stopped before the line but otherwise their word against yours and they are going to be more reliable than you. > [@Something](#): > > “I don’t want to move to a city where the only cultural advantage is being able to make a right turn on a red light.” > > Woody Allen, when Annie Hall asks him to consider moving to Los Angeles. Woody Allen needs every cultural driving advantage he can get. He once almost ran me off the road by veering into my lane while apparently searching for something on the dashboard of his Bentley. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/32 "2021-06-03T20:00:02Z")
> [@Mark\_Finn](#): > > In addition to NYC, right on red is also illegal on the island of Montreal (which includes the city of Montreal and a number of other municipalities). There are [pictograms](https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4217321,-73.9658492,3a,75y,95.51h,79.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smRXPtR8bMX0ulKOjf5N_Xw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at every bridge/tunnel accessing the island. I believe these are the only two jurisdictions in North America where it is generally forbidden. So I am not used to doing it. But yes I was aware of the rule. You are also supposed to come to a complete stop at stop signs, but hardly anyone ever does. Unless there is an 84 year old doddering across the street, in which case they are almost embarrassingly scrupulous. They stop and wave me across if I am anywhere near the intersection. I am not exaggerating. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/33 "2021-06-03T20:10:15Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Always knew (Arkansas, in my case). Same here. My parents even told me this when I was a kid, explaining to me when I asked why they were allowed to turn at the red light. I remember being confused when someone else I was riding with didn’t stop. It wasn’t until Driver’s Ed that I learned that right on red wasn’t allowed in all states. Though I did know there were sometimes signs saying it was not allowed at a particular intersection. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/34 "2021-06-03T21:17:43Z")
In my area, there are actually some intersections where you don’t have to stop before you turn right on red. See the intersection below, for example. If you’re going north on E. Bidwell and want to turn right onto Iron Point, you get in the right turn lane, which leads to the little “ramp” for lack of a better word that’s separated from the rest of the intersection by that little island and bypasses the traffic lights, and them merge onto Iron Point. It effectively works kind of like a miniature version of a freeway on ramp. The same if you’re going south on E. Bidwell to Iron Point, or westbound Iron Point to E. Bidwell. Now that I’ve gotten used to this kind of intersection, it kind of annoys me when I end up behind someone who’s never encountered one before and thinks they have to stop. Of course if there’s a pedestrian in the crosswalk then you have to stop, but that’s a completely different matter. https://www.google.com/maps/embed?pb=!1m14!1m12!1m3!1d966.6597976003015!2d-121.11579080595197!3d38.64813482502956!2m3!1f0!2f0!3f0!3m2!1i1024!2i768!4f13.1!5e1!3m2!1sen!2sus!4v1622754196022!5m2!1sen!2sus ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/35 "2021-06-03T22:52:26Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Unless there is an 84 year old doddering across the street … Drivers tend to view people crossing the street – anywhere – to be a nuisance. Drivers making turns of any kind, with or against the light, left or right, are forced to wait for pedestrians, which can leave them agitated if the pedestrian causes their opportunity to go to evaporate. Even turning right or left on a green can frustrate the driver if they have to wait for that puny person to get out of their way. I recall seeing three-cycle intersections in the Seattle area that had box+x crosswalks: there was a pedestrian-only light cycle, during which pedestrians could cross one street or could use a diagonal to cross kitty-corner. I imagine those intersections did not allow any turns during the pedestrian cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/36 "2021-06-03T23:54:24Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > If you’re going north on E. Bidwell and want to turn right onto Iron Point, you get in the right turn lane, which leads to the little “ramp” for lack of a better word that’s separated from the rest of the intersection by that little island and bypasses the traffic lights, and them merge onto Iron Point. It effectively works kind of like a miniature version of a freeway on ramp. Many or most of the major intersections near me are like this, and the “ramp” is controlled by an implied yield sign, not a stop sign. They are a bit of a pain as a pedestrian since you cross the ramp with a pedestrian crossing which drivers looking the other way for traffic on the cross street aren’t going to see. Crossing the main road, controlled by a Walk signal, is much safer. ---
**Author:** ![Enjoy\_Slurm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enjoy_slurm/32/3937_2.png) [@Enjoy\_Slurm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enjoy_Slurm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/37 "2021-06-04T00:08:41Z")
> [@Jumpbass](#): > > I asked a couple of cops in a Starbucks about this once. They said it’s fine. Well, those cops lied or they do not know the law. As I was taught in Driver’s Ed, in California, you may turn right only from the right most lane into the right most lane. > [@](#): > > Begin and end the turn in the lane nearest the right edge of the road [https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/california-driver-handbook/turns/](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/california-driver-handbook/turns/) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/38 "2021-06-04T00:14:40Z")
Always knew. > [@](#): > > The [Energy Policy and Conservation Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_and_Conservation_Act) of 1975 required in §362(c)(5) that in order for a state to receive federal assistance in developing mandated conservation programs, they must permit right turns on red lights.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#cite_note-3) All 50 states, the [District of Columbia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia), [Guam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam), and [Puerto Rico](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico) have allowed right turns on red since 1980, except where prohibited by a sign or where right turns are controlled by dedicated [traffic lights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_lights). (The last state with a right-on-red ban, Massachusetts, ended its ban on January 1, 1980.[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#cite_note-4)) The few exceptions include [New York City](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City),[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red#cite_note-5) where right turns on red are prohibited, unless a sign indicates otherwise. Source: [Turn on red - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_on_red) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/39 "2021-06-04T00:35:12Z")
> [@Enjoy\_Slurm](#): > > > [@Jumpbass](#): > > > > I asked a couple of cops in a Starbucks about this once. They said it’s fine. > > Well, those cops lied or they do not know the law. Or maybe they said “It’s a _fine_” if you do that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500/40 "2021-06-04T00:43:41Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > What is disturbing to me are a few intersections with two right turn lanes, and drivers in the inner lane often go as well, which seems kind of wrong. It’s not legal here in Connecticut. Right on red only from “the lane closest to the curb”. There are signs at the bottom of freeway off-ramps to inform visitors. > [@carrps](#): > > When I was first learning to drive that rolling stop was called the California Creep\*. A “California stop” where I grew up. > [@kanicbird](#): > > I’m turning right on red (or left on red from one way to one way streets - public service announcement: also legal). But I’m behind a car that is also doing the same. They stop usually over the stop line and me stopped behind them. When they go, if I’m clear I follow, as I was stopped behind them, and I was reasonably at the stop line (again they were over). I feel that meets the requirement of the law but IDK. That’s how I do it. I have stopped at the proper point, can clearly see that there is no traffic coming from the left, and go as soon as my way is clear. > [@kanicbird](#): > > (or left on red from one way to one way streets - public service announcement: also legal) How many places is that legal? I know it was in Iowa back in the early '80s (but don’t know if it still is). > [@eschereal](#): > > there was a pedestrian-only light cycle, during which pedestrians could cross one street or could use a diagonal to cross kitty-corner. A “Barnes dance”. We had those in Illinois in the late '60s/early '70s, at which time right on red was not legal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-ever-a-time-when-you-didn-t-know-the-following-when-you-make-a-right-turn-at-a-red-light-you-have-to-come-to-a-complete-stop-first/943500.md?page=3)