# Was there really such thing as Satanism/Diabolism/Black Mass, ever, before LaVey? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567 "2009-10-29T04:42:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/1 "2009-10-29T04:42:40Z")
[Witch trials](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_witch-hunts) in medieval and early modern Europe were based on the assumption that “witches” were Devil-worshipers. [Black Mass](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_mass) figured in popular imagination from the Baroque period onward. But did such a thing as [Satanism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism) ever really exist, in any form, before [Anton Szandor LaVey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Szandor_LaVey) invented the [Church of Satan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_satan) in the late 1960s? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/2 "2009-10-29T05:10:37Z")
Obviously there’s [Aleister Crowley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley) previous to the 1960s. But overall, I suspect that LaVey mostly owed his ideas to the [Hellfire Club](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_club) and anarchism. Neither the Hellfire Club nor Crowley worshipped the Christian devil, nor does LaVey’s Satanism. So really there never has been a cult of Devil-worshipers up into modern day. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/3 "2009-10-29T05:17:16Z")
According to Brian Levack (author of _The Witch-Hunt in Early Modern Europe_) there are three components necessary for a large scale witch hunt. Note: Places like Portugal had all three of these but never experienced large scale witch hunts. #1. Maleficium (harmful magic). #2. Inquisitorial justice system. #3. A belief in diabolism. Diabolism wasn’t just the idea that an individual was worshiping the devil but that there was a conspiracy of devil worshipers that were hellbent on challenging not only God but the state as well. While there are certainly plenty of confessions in the records of accused witches detailing their Sabbaths with the devil and other witches, honestly, I can’t think of any modern scholar on magical beliefs or witch trials in early modern Europe that believe there was wide scale devil worship. In 1921 Margaret Murray’s _Witch Cult in Western Europe_ was released. Murray didn’t argue that the witches persecuted were devil worshipers but she did claim that they were remnants of Europe’s pagan religions. While this belief is pretty common in modern neo-Pagan circles it is not held by most scholars and her work on this topic is not held in high regard. There is the fascinating case of the Benadanti in the Fruili district of northern Italy. They were a strange fertility cult that believed they could fight evil witches in their dreams and prevent their crops from being ruined. They would have considered themselves to have been good Christians though the Inquisition eventually convinced them otherwise. None of them were executed for witchcraft though. Odesio PS: During the middle ages there really was no concept of diabolism, or, at least, not on the scale that existed starting around 1450. If you told a priest in 1100 AD that you and your friends meet in the woods with Satan he would have thought you were delusional not a witch. Diabolism really took hold in early modern Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/4 "2009-10-29T05:21:12Z")
I don’t see why not. If people believed there were such things as witches, then you have to figure a few of them would decide they wanted to be one. Sure there was a danger of being arrested and executed but you also have the potential for gaining power or other rewards from your Satanic allegiance. Satanism would have been the medieval equivalent of joining the Mafia. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/5 "2009-10-29T12:30:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Obviously there’s [Aleister Crowley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley) previous to the 1960s. But overall, I suspect that LaVey mostly owed his ideas to the [Hellfire Club](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_club) and anarchism. > > Neither the Hellfire Club nor Crowley worshipped the Christian devil, nor does LaVey’s Satanism. So really there never has been a cult of Devil-worshipers up into modern day. Crowley may not have been a Satanist proper, but he certainly was a Demonist, as were his disciples Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/6 "2009-10-29T13:22:06Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Crowley may not have been a Satanist proper, but he certainly was a Demonist, as were his disciples Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard. How are you defining “Demonist”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/7 "2009-10-29T13:52:48Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In 1921 Margaret Murray’s _Witch Cult in Western Europe_ was released. Murray didn’t argue that the witches persecuted were devil worshipers but she did claim that they were remnants of Europe’s pagan religions. While this belief is pretty common in modern neo-Pagan circles it is not held by most scholars and her work on this topic is not held in high regard. If the “witches” were neither practicing pre-Christian religions nor worshipping Satan, one wonders what (if anything) they **were** doing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/8 "2009-10-29T14:01:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t see why not. If people believed there were such things as witches, then you have to figure a few of them would decide they wanted to be one. Sure there was a danger of being arrested and executed but you also have the potential for gaining power or other rewards from your Satanic allegiance. Satanism would have been the medieval equivalent of joining the Mafia. Yup. Wherever there is a widespread belief in the efficacy of witchcraft and Black magic, you will find people feeding off of it - either by posing as black magicians/witches as a way of fraudulently bilking the gullible, or out of genuine belief in its power (or a combo of both). I read that there was an outbreak of interest in satan-worshipping black magic among the aristocrats of the court of Louis XIV - dunno how true any of it is, but it would not surprise me. > **[The affair of the poisons;: Louis XIV, Madame de Montespan, and one of history's...](https://www.amazon.com/affair-poisons-Montespan-historys-mysteries/dp/B0006CTVKC)** > > The affair of the poisons;: Louis XIV, Madame de Montespan, and one of history's great unsolved mysteries \[mossiker, frances\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. The affair of the poisons;: Louis XIV, Madame de Montespan, and one of... > **[Affair of the Poisons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_affair)** > > The Affair of the Poisons (French: affaire des poisons, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}pronounced \[afɛʁ de pwazɔ̃\]) was a major murder scandal in France during the reign of King Louis XIV. Between 1677 and 1682, a number of prominent members of the aristocracy were implicated and sentenced on charges of poisoning and witchcraft. ... The affair had very serious consequences - among which was the alienation of Prince Eugine of Saxony from France – his mom was accused of witchcraft and poisioning: > [@](#): > > Perhaps the most important effect of the scandal, and subsequent persecutions, was the expulsion from France of the aforementioned Comtesse de Soissons. Her son remained in France only to find that his mother’s high-profile disgrace prevented him from realising his personal ambitions, as he was effectively barred from pursuing a military career. He would eventually leave France nurturing a profound grudge against Louis XIV and enter the service of France’s sworn enemies the Habsburgs. Prince Eugene of Savoy, or Prinz Eugen, would, in time, come to be known as one of the greatest generals of the age and one of the factors behind the failure of Louis’ bid for hegemony in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/9 "2009-10-29T14:32:45Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Crowley may not have been a Satanist proper, but he certainly was a Demonist, as were his disciples Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard. They may not have worshipprd them, but they certainly practiced invocation of demons. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/10 "2009-10-29T14:40:07Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > They may not have worshipprd them, but they certainly practiced invocation of demons. The Chinese and Japanese have words that are often translated into English as “demon”, but these aren’t Christian demons by any means. They existed previous to the introduction of Christianity and are reputed to have different qualities than Christian demons. Christianity doesn’t have a lock on the word “demon”. Believing in demons doesn’t make someone secretly Christian nor a Christian Satanist. It just means that you believe in the existence of some sort of group of evil spirits. By all reports, Satanism has nothing to do with the Christian Satan and hence the demons referred to by them are unrelated to Christian demons. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/11 "2009-10-29T14:40:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If the “witches” were neither practicing pre-Christian religions nor worshipping Satan, one wonders what (if anything) they **were** doing. Being women who, for some reason or another, had attracted the jealousy and/or suspicion of their fellow townsfolk/villagers, whether that was because they provided herbal abortifacients for other village women or because they were “crazy cat ladies” or even that they were just lonely, scary old women. Add in self-described “witch finders” who got paid per witch found and you’ve got a recipe for absolute horror. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/12 "2009-10-29T14:44:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > By all reports, Satanism has nothing to do with the Christian Satan and hence the demons referred to by them are unrelated to Christian demons. It’s my understanding that LaVeyan Satanism (and most of its offshoots) don’t even go as far as actually calling “real” demons. The CoS is practically a form of ritual atheism/egoism…what they call “Satan” is actually their own personal ego, and that’s not some deep subconscious psychology…LaVey actually writes about it in the Satanic Bible. The whole “Satan” thing in the Church of Satan is about one step up the ladder from high school kids dressing in black and sacrificing pinkie mice in a half-assed pentagram where an adult is sure to find the remains. Shock value. ---
**Author:** ![Umbriel2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/4af34b/32.png) [@Umbriel2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Umbriel2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/13 "2009-10-29T14:48:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If the “witches” were neither practicing pre-Christian religions nor worshipping Satan, one wonders what (if anything) they **were** doing. Some may simply have been practicing traditional folk magic. That might have had pre-Christian roots, but many practitioners probably thought of themselves as Christian. I agree with **Little Nemo** The motivation of many dabblers in Satanism throughout history was probably the same as it is today – Thumbing their nose at the establishment, and demonstrating to themselves and others what badasses they were. Christianity simply falsely projected its own degree of organization and structure onto its imagined nemesis. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/14 "2009-10-29T14:55:16Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Being women who, for some reason or another, had attracted the jealousy and/or suspicion of their fellow townsfolk/villagers, whether that was because they provided herbal abortifacients for other village women or because they were “crazy cat ladies” or even that they were just lonely, scary old women. Add in self-described “witch finders” who got paid per witch found and you’ve got a recipe for absolute horror. I suspect a lot of it was that. But I’d be surprised if there were not “genuine” practitioners of black magic as well (“genuine” in the sense of _claiming_ such powers of course 😃 ). By “black magic” I mean te use of magical arts to curse rivals as a means of doing them harm, or the use of magic to gain power for oneself at the expense of others. After all, most traditional-folk cultures believe in the powers of various sorts of magic and superstition, and no culture lacks people who are evily-intentioned towards others. Magic, poisioning and feuds with hated rivals probably all ran together - the problem being, of course, that the primitive and credulous judicial system, freely employing torture, produced so many false positives that it is difficult to find any genuine evidence. After all, it was probably an even _more_ effective tactic to work harm on rivals to _accuse them_ of witchcraft, as to practice it yourself … As to the content of such magic - it was probably an amalgam of local superstitions mixed with concepts borrowed from Christianity. My mother in law, an immigrant from Ukraine, very much 'folk" religious (Ukranian Catholic), practices a sort of witchcraft - good witchcraft of course - using burning of wax candles mixed with various herbs gathered at night to magically protect herself. She’s a firm believer in bad witchcraft as well, and I’ll bet she knows the traditional ways to curse someone (though of course would never do it … ). ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/15 "2009-10-29T15:08:22Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > They may not have worshipprd them, but they certainly practiced invocation of demons. From _Henry IV Part 1_:Glendower: I can call Spirits from the vast Deep Hotspur: Why so can I, or so can any man: [indent]But will they come, when you do call for them? [/INDENT] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/16 "2009-10-29T16:05:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I read that there was an outbreak of interest in satan-worshipping black magic among the aristocrats of the court of Louis XIV - dunno how true any of it is, but it would not surprise me. That’s exactly what I was wondering: How much Black Mass, etc., was **really** going on? And, if it was real, were the participants really hoping to curry favor with Satan, or just playing a blasphemous game for the excitement of it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/17 "2009-10-29T16:10:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I suspect a lot of it was that. But I’d be surprised if there were not “genuine” practitioners of black magic as well (“genuine” in the sense of _claiming_ such powers of course 😃 ). By “black magic” I mean te use of magical arts to curse rivals as a means of doing them harm, or the use of magic to gain power for oneself at the expense of others. > > After all, most traditional-folk cultures believe in the powers of various sorts of magic and superstition, and no culture lacks people who are evily-intentioned towards others. Magic, poisioning and feuds with hated rivals probably all ran together - the problem being, of course, that the primitive and credulous judicial system, freely employing torture, produced so many false positives that it is difficult to find any genuine evidence. After all, it was probably an even _more_ effective tactic to work harm on rivals to _accuse them_ of witchcraft, as to practice it yourself … > > As to the content of such magic - it was probably an amalgam of local superstitions mixed with concepts borrowed from Christianity. My mother in law, an immigrant from Ukraine, very much 'folk" religious (Ukranian Catholic), practices a sort of witchcraft - good witchcraft of course - using burning of wax candles mixed with various herbs gathered at night to magically protect herself. She’s a firm believer in bad witchcraft as well, and I’ll bet she knows the traditional ways to curse someone (though of course would never do it … ). Apparently there was also, in medieval and early modern Europe, a recognized category of [“cunning folk,”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunning_folk) practitioners of folk magic for more beneficent ends, who neither regarded themselves nor were regarded by others as “witches,” and who even sometimes functioned as witchfinders. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/18 "2009-10-29T16:12:47Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > They may not have worshipprd them, but they certainly practiced invocation of demons. I know ceremonial magicians (such as Crowley) sometimes call on what they call “angels” (and by Hebrew names such as Ariel, etc.). I’m not clear on whether they recognize any distinction between “angels” and “demons.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/19 "2009-10-29T16:27:24Z")
> [@](#): > > I agree with Little Nemo The motivation of many dabblers in Satanism throughout history was probably the same as it is today – Thumbing their nose at the establishment, and demonstrating to themselves and others what badasses they were. Christianity simply falsely projected its own degree of organization and structure onto its imagined nemesis. Actually I think that many of the early Satanists were sincere. They lived in a time when people really believed in the power of Satan to make bargains and offer rewards for service and they decided to accept the supposed offer. So they weren’t just tried to shock public opinion - they probably even tried to conceal what they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/20 "2009-10-29T16:27:53Z")
Only tangential to the thread topic, but of some interest: The values of Lavayan/Church of Satan Satanists are not simply the inverse of Christian morality. If they were, Satanists would take it as their duty to do evil for evil’s sake – harm people, vandalize property, etc. Maybe the kind of teenage “Satanists” who sacrifice kittens to their heavy-metal album covers do think that way, but the [CoS](http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html) has these “Nine Satanic Statements”: > [@](#): > > 1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence! > > 2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams! > > 3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit! > > 4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates! > > 5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek! > > 6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires! > > 7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all! > > 8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification! > > 9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years! And “Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth”: > [@](#): > > 1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked. > > 2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them. > > 3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there. > > 4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy. > > 5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal. > > 6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved. > > 7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained. > > 8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself. > > 9. Do not harm little children. > > 10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food. > > 11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him. And “Nine Satanic Sins”: > [@](#): > > 1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid. > > 2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not. > > 3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point. > > 4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit! > > 5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many. > > 6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world. > > 7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society. > > 8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it. > > 9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied. What all this expresses is definitely a value system, in the sense that _Plan Nine from Outer Space_ is definitely a motion picture. It is in some respects the reverse of Christian values, e.g., in the substitution of pride for humility; but in other respects arguably parallel to it or completely orthogonal to it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567.md?page=2)