# Was there really such thing as Satanism/Diabolism/Black Mass, ever, before LaVey? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567 "2009-10-29T04:42:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/21 "2009-10-29T17:52:32Z")
When I read the "Satanic Bible’, many years ago. I thought it was unabashed hedonism. Which is defensible. If all we get is this one go around ,you may as well have fun. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/22 "2009-10-29T18:14:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s exactly what I was wondering: How much Black Mass, etc., was **really** going on? And, if it was real, were the participants really hoping to curry favor with Satan, or just playing a blasphemous game for the excitement of it? I suspect it was (a) real and (b) done for motives of gain (the connection with poisioners if real indicates they were not simply screwing around for thrills). However, again one runs up against the problem that it is hard to tell the difference between a _real_ case of Satan-worshiping black magic and poisioning, and simply hysteria and moral panic concering it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/23 "2009-10-29T18:23:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Apparently there was also, in medieval and early modern Europe, a recognized category of [“cunning folk,”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunning_folk) practitioners of folk magic for more beneficent ends, who neither regarded themselves nor were regarded by others as “witches,” and who even sometimes functioned as witchfinders. Yeah, my suspicion is that “good” magic was pretty common; I strongly suspect that there was also “bad” magic too - only of course more hidden. I know that many these days consider witchcraft (of the bad sort) to have been either non-existant or the product of some sort of “good pagan survival”, but I’m skeptical: stands to reason that if people _believe_ in the power of magic, there will be some bad-intentioned folks who will prey on that. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/24 "2009-10-29T18:27:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Only tangential to the thread topic, but of some interest: The values of Lavayan/Church of Satan Satanists are not simply the inverse of Christian morality. If they were, Satanists would take it as their duty to do evil for evil’s sake – harm people, vandalize property, etc. Maybe the kind of teenage “Satanists” who sacrifice kittens to their heavy-metal album covers do think that way, but the [CoS](http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html) has these “Nine Satanic Statements”: > > … > > What all this expresses is definitely a value system, in the sense that _Plan Nine from Outer Space_ is definitely a motion picture. It is in some respects the reverse of Christian values, e.g., in the substitution of pride for humility; but in other respects arguably parallel to it or completely orthogonal to it. Yup; this sort of “Satanism” is light-years away from what those French aristos thought they were doing, or what your average medieval witch (assuming again such a person existed) was up to. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/25 "2009-10-29T18:42:13Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Being women who, for some reason or another, had attracted the jealousy and/or suspicion of their fellow townsfolk/villagers . . .. Or men. The stereotype of the witch is female, and, in most of Europe during the witchcraft trials, the majority of accused were female, but in certain areas in Europe, especially in Austria and parts of Switzerland, the majority were male. People might enjoy this database, which is a survey of witchcraft trials in Scotland: > **[The Survey of Scottish Witchcraft](https://witches.hca.ed.ac.uk/)** There’s a pretty large link between witchcraft accusations and religious and economic unrest. Witchcraft trials were most numerous in the areas that were battlegrounds of the Reformation; Germany, Geneva, the Huguenot areas of France. Oh, also even though people talk about the “medieval witch”, witchcraft wasn’t a major preoccupation in the middle ages. It’s more of a Renaissance preoccupation. There were next to no witchcraft trials in the middle ages. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/26 "2009-10-29T18:42:47Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Being women who, for some reason or another, had attracted the jealousy and/or suspicion of their fellow townsfolk/villagers, whether that was because they provided herbal abortifacients for other village women or because they were “crazy cat ladies” or even that they were just lonely, scary old women. Add in self-described “witch finders” who got paid per witch found and you’ve got a recipe for absolute horror. See the 1968 Vincent Price film [_Witchfinder General_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchfinder_General_(film)) (a/k/a _The Conqueror Worm.)_ ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/27 "2009-10-29T19:13:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Or men. The stereotype of the witch is female, and, in most of Europe during the witchcraft trials, the majority of accused were female, but in certain areas in Europe, especially in Austria and parts of Switzerland, the majority were male. > > People might enjoy this database, which is a survey of witchcraft trials in Scotland: > > [http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/witches/](http://webdb.ucs.ed.ac.uk/witches/) > > There’s a pretty large link between witchcraft accusations and religious and economic unrest. Witchcraft trials were most numerous in the areas that were battlegrounds of the Reformation; Germany, Geneva, the Huguenot areas of France. > > Oh, also even though people talk about the “medieval witch”, witchcraft wasn’t a major preoccupation in the middle ages. It’s more of a Renaissance preoccupation. There were next to no witchcraft trials in the middle ages. Correction: witchcraft _trials_ were more of a Renaissance/Reformation preoccupation. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/28 "2009-10-29T20:55:45Z")
I doubt there were more than a tiny handful of witches. Rarely, you would find a few working together. Mostly, I suspect you would have solo satanists practicing hedonism. As far as good magic is concerned, nearly everybody practiced that to some degree. Put a saint’s medal by your door to keep out demons. Wear a luck horn to keep off the evil eye. The host was reputed to have myriad benevolent powers. Marvin Harris says in Cows, Pigs, War And Witches- The Riddles Of Culture that witchhunts were the church and aristocracy wagging the dog. Why are your taxes so high? We need the money to fight witches. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/29 "2009-10-29T21:55:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See the 1968 Vincent Price film [_Witchfinder General_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchfinder_General_(film)) (a/k/a _The Conqueror Worm.)_ And goggle West Memphis Three. The movies made about that case Paradise Lost and Paradise Lost Revisted are the only works of cinema that have ever given me nightmares. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/30 "2009-10-30T22:02:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If the “witches” were neither practicing pre-Christian religions nor worshipping Satan, one wonders what (if anything) they **were** doing. Remember that this was a time period where many people did believe in the efficacy of magic. Scotland, just as an example, passed a law in 1563 that forbade necromancy, sorcery, and other “superstitious” practices even going so far as to say that those used the services of the aforementioned magical folk could also be executed. Anyway, there were probably people who were practicing magic (not that I believe in the efficacy of magic). Odesio ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/31 "2009-10-31T06:59:20Z")
As someone who believes in god and satan, sure, some have worshipped satan. I have read and spoken to some who claim to be satanists, one mentioned the o.t.o. Does it work? I have not tried to find out. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/32 "2009-10-31T13:43:47Z")
I can offer up only that back in the '60s LaVey’s Satanic Bible was handed around, hush-hush, in a group of acquaintances and I took a look. I thought it was utter rubbish, something to get a rise out of the Establishment. It sounded so…childish. Drawing a pentagram in chalk and chanting to The Dark Lord or whatever? Please! :rolleyes:What was that going to get you - a cooler spot in hell or something? I thought that if you went to any effort to conjure up/worship the devil trying to get some kind of powers, you were going to be in for a HUGE surprise after you croaked - it’s the devil, hello! He’s not going to make you a valued minion after death! It’s a losing game. It’s all chance, anyway. Pray to God and something good happens, you attribute it to God. Pray to the devil and something good happens, you thank the devil. Don’t pray to anything, something good - good happens, bad happens. It’s all chance. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/33 "2009-10-31T21:08:48Z")
I’ve read that certain women were burned as witches because they had no brothers and were in line to inherit money and therefore power from their parent. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/34 "2009-10-31T21:49:51Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > I can offer up only that back in the '60s LaVey’s Satanic Bible was handed around, hush-hush, in a group of acquaintances and I took a look. I thought it was utter rubbish, something to get a rise out of the Establishment. It sounded so…childish. Drawing a pentagram in chalk and chanting to The Dark Lord or whatever? Please! :rolleyes:What was that going to get you - a cooler spot in hell or something? I thought that if you went to any effort to conjure up/worship the devil trying to get some kind of powers, you were going to be in for a HUGE surprise after you croaked - it’s the devil, hello! He’s not going to make you a valued minion after death! It’s a losing game. It’s all chance, anyway. Pray to God and something good happens, you attribute it to God. Pray to the devil and something good happens, you thank the devil. Don’t pray to anything, something good - good happens, bad happens. It’s all chance. I don’t think LaVey believed in Heaven or Hell, nor even in Satan as an actual being. “Satan” is just the name Satanists give their own egos. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/35 "2009-10-31T22:04:46Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > I’ve read that certain women were burned as witches because they had no brothers and were in line to inherit money and therefore power from their parent. I’m not saying it didn’t ever happen, but why would that be the case? Do you mean that other family members are accusing them of witchcraft to get hold of their inheritances? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/36 "2009-11-01T04:38:25Z")
> [@BigBertha](#): > > I’ve read that certain women were burned as witches because they had no brothers and were in line to inherit money and therefore power from their parent. The truth is there’s a lot we don’t know about the witch trials and a lot we’ll probably never be able to know. Of the nearly 3,200 cases in Scotland from 1563-1736 they only know the outcome of about 320 or so trials. It’s very difficult to know what motivated people to accuse others of witchcraft. Even when historians find good records for a particular case the question is whether or not that case was typical. The Salem Witch Trials may have been motivated by political and economic interest so I suppose accusations of witchcraft over inheritance could have happened as well. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/37 "2009-11-01T07:24:57Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The truth is there’s a lot we don’t know about the witch trials and a lot we’ll probably never be able to know. Of the nearly 3,200 cases in Scotland from 1563-1736 they only know the outcome of about 320 or so trials. It’s very difficult to know what motivated people to accuse others of witchcraft. Even when historians find good records for a particular case the question is whether or not that case was typical. The Salem Witch Trials may have been motivated by political and economic interest so I suppose accusations of witchcraft over inheritance could have happened as well. And then there were the [Salem Bitch Trials.](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/93/93bbitch.phtml) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567/38 "2009-11-01T07:51:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And then there were the [Salem Bitch Trials.](http://snltranscripts.jt.org/93/93bbitch.phtml) I loved that skit. For some reason every time that woman speaks the line “Just because we’re from Holland” it cracks me up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-really-such-thing-as-satanism-diabolism-black-mass-ever-before-lavey/515567.md?page=1)