# Was there strong opposition to the UK gun bans? Could the same happen in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266 "2008-09-19T03:53:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/101 "2008-09-19T22:51:11Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > They are suitable for killing about the same way a croquet mallet is. I think this argument is pretty much irrelevant, but come on. Guns were designed to kill things. That is their purpose. They are weapons, pure and simple. You can take advantage of them without firing them, and you can fire them at inanimate objects to practice, but really; their purpose is to kill things. It’s not a value judgment to say so, nor does it follow that anyone owning one must ergo want to kill someone. But it is still the truth. To me this is an example of people getting backed into defending silly positions for no reason. Gun rights are perfectly respectable without these sorts of mental gymnastics. No-one would question a policeman’s need to carry a gun just because he never has cause to draw it, so why do we need to pretend that guns are anything other than what they are; highly efficient weapons? Were they not, the entire self-defence argument would be moot. > [@](#): > > Ever seen a free pistol? Okay, I challenge you to a duel at 50 paces. You can have the croquet mallet, and I’ll have the pistol. 🙂 I don’t see how this thread is getting pitworthy, incidentally. It’s gotten pretty unfocused, and I have no idea what the general point is any more, but it seems reasonably civil. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/102 "2008-09-19T22:53:55Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > British people are - by and large - quite happy not to have guns. _This is the normal state of things for us_. It’s not some deficiency for which we require sympathy or remedy. Importantly it’s not just that we’re quite happy about it. We regard it as part of normal life. That means, people carrying guns, even legitimately, is not normal. It might be that there’s a member of the royal family passing by in convoy. It might be that we live in some shithole where everyday life can’t be described as normal. Major airports aren’t normal. (Aside: why do only big airports get guys with guns? I feel a bit of a fraud going through security at Norwich) The important thing: we really really like the idea that guns are something we don’t have to think about. At all. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/103 "2008-09-19T22:59:32Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Ever seen a [free pistol](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Pistol)? It is an example of one of the highly specialized guns I mentioned upthread. A good hardwood croquet mallet would actually be a superior tool for killing another person. Eh, a .22 using gun may not have the same stopping power as a general self-defence gun, but I suspect a fight between a guy with a heavy mallet requiring close range and a guy who can literally just run away and stop every now and then to plink away would end up with the free pistol owner winning. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/104 "2008-09-19T23:01:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The important thing: we really really like the idea that guns are something we don’t have to think about. At all. But wait - I thought there are lots of farmers that have shotguns and stuff? Or by guns are we basically talking about handguns? If your argument is that the basic city-dweller never needs to worry about guns, well, I’d buy that, seeing as how I don’t think I’d be too afraid to walk around London unarmed at night. I might get into a brawl with hooligans but hey, everyone needs to get into a brawl now and then. On a farm, though, you have to have at least a shotgun. For keeping the pests away, if not for the rabbit or fowl hunting. (In that movie Straw Dogs, when Dustin Hoffman moves to that village with all the sleazy guys who wind up fucking his wife, they go hunting for ducks with shotguns and it’s presented as if it’s a common thing over there.) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/105 "2008-09-19T23:08:01Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > But wait - I thought there are lots of farmers that have shotguns and stuff? There are, but the average citizen’s experience of them is the very occasional distant, muffled _pop_ from across the fields way over there. ---
**Author:** ![ThisOneGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@ThisOneGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisOneGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/106 "2008-09-19T23:10:32Z")
Suprised nobody included this essay: > **[ALL THE WAY DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE: GUN PROHIBITION IN ENGLAND AND SOME...](https://guncite.com/journals/okslip.html)** > > Constitutional Commentary; All the Way Down the Slippery Slope: Gun Prohibition in England and Some Lessons for Civil Liberties in America, by Joseph Olson and David Kopel. The American right to keep and bear arms came out of British law. However gun ownership was never as widespread as in the US. Consequently when gun bans came up, few people were effected and they didn’t protest much. Even today if you’re rich or powerfull you have no trouble getting guns in the UK (same as in California). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/107 "2008-09-19T23:11:14Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > The important thing: we really really like the idea that guns are something we don’t have to think about. At all. Agreed, which also explains our agitation when, in discussions like this one, it is suggested that things be changed. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/108 "2008-09-19T23:18:30Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > But wait - I thought there are lots of farmers that have shotguns and stuff? > > Or by guns are we basically talking about handguns? Yes, handguns, and also that ‘we’ being the people who don’t need guns for a purpose. Where they’re needed as part of everyday life, then we don’t have a problem. That’s what guns are for. Restrictions on shotguns haven’t, as far as I know, been a matter for serious political debate for some time. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/109 "2008-09-19T23:31:56Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Well - I realize that this comment might offend people but maybe it’s because those European countries have been ruled by a class-elite system for hundreds and hundreds of years, and there’s a mentality firmly embedded into the population that certain people of a higher class - leaders, aristocrats, and the like - are just naturally entitled to protect themselves and keep weapons, to the point where you don’t even question it or think about it all because it’s so accepted. Meanwhile the average person never questions the fact that he exists on a plane far below them, and is content to live his life without enjoying those freedoms because he never desires them in the first place. > > ETA - for the same reason that in England, I take it, hunting is a pastime for the nobility. Peasants poaching on the lord’s land were executed back in Medieval times. In Britain, hunting is a privilege of the elite. Here in America everyone can hunt if he wants to. There are wide open lands available to anyone, and hunting is enjoyed by all social classes, not just the high-ups. Jeez. Well, you know, if the scorn dripped any faster, it would look like a Niagara of spittle. First, hunting in England, at any rate, means riding horses and chasing foxes with hounds whilst wearing pink coats that are really scarlet as tanagers and shouting “Yoicks” and stopping now and again in the villages to rape the buxom barmaids. That’s hunting. Shooting is different. It means pressganging hordes of cowering, forelock-tugging peasants to chase helpless pet pheasants into the guns of drunken lords and dukes who shoot their big bored shotguns indiscriminately and if they hit a few peasants instead of pheasants, what ho, who gives a rat’s, eh? Like the Brits, we Canucks don’t find it necessary or especially desirable to have guns about the house for “self-defense”. See, our Royal Overlords provide it for us and we, in our colonial downtroddeness, don’t really care. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/110 "2008-09-19T23:52:11Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > There’s a couple of problems with this, however. First off that in the case of the Queen et al., her armed guards are generally members of the armed forces of one of the Commonwealth. The day to day protection officers are policemen, not army. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/111 "2008-09-19T23:56:41Z")
> [@Struan](#): > > The day to day protection officers are policemen, not army. I did say “generally”. But I don’t know as much as i’d like to - are they armed? Which force are they taken from, or is it a special group that rotates around? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/112 "2008-09-20T00:06:09Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Guns aren’t banned, by the way. Anyone can apply for one. They just have to indicate they are of good character, and have a necessity for one.As here. It’s just a bit expensive, and requires a serious intent to get into it. It’s easy enough to obtain a licence for a shotgun (albeit a bit bureaucratic) “I like clay pigeon shooting”, and similar for a hunting rifle “I like to shoot deer with my rich friends”. You just need to not have a serious criminal record and have somewhere secure to store the weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/113 "2008-09-20T00:08:50Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I did say “generally”. But I don’t know as much as i’d like to - are they armed? Which force are they taken from, or is it a special group that rotates around? Everything you wanted to know: > **[Protection Command](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royalty_and_Diplomatic_Protection_Department)** > > The Protection Command is one of the commands within the Specialist Operations directorate of London's Metropolitan Police Service. The command specialises in protective security and has two branches: Royalty and Specialist Protection (RaSP), providing protection to the royal family and close protection to government officials, and Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection (PaDP), providing uniformed security to government buildings, officials and diplomats. In contrast with the vast majorit In Ap... Basically, special department of the MPS, when they’re on protective duty, they are armed. They share protective duties with the Army, specifically the Queen’s Guard/Household Division. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/114 "2008-09-20T00:27:06Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I did say “generally”. But I don’t know as much as i’d like to - are they armed? Which force are they taken from, or is it a special group that rotates around? They are armed. There’s a whole branch of the Metropolitan Police dedicated to VIP protection, but I don’t know what - if any - role the other regional forces have when it comes to protection on their home turf. They all have officers trained with weapons though. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/115 "2008-09-20T01:20:55Z")
Someone mentioned above that guns could be used to ‘protect from robbery’. Isn’t that more than a little barbaric? Really. Stuff ain’t worth killing people over. I’d hate to see the gun ‘bans’ in the U.K. Australia and NZ overturned. Very little gun violence is a good thing. If we tend to nick a few more cars then that really is no big deal. I also like unarmed police officers. I feel much safer when they don’t carry firearms. And I’d much rather face off someone with a knife at 20 paces then with a firearm. But it still won’t happen here in the U.S. Guns are too deeply entrenched. The sheer number of handguns out there makes any sort of regulation almost impossible. Short of me being able to pull off some sort of Barnhouse Effect ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/116 "2008-09-20T01:29:07Z")
If you’re being robbed by an armed robber you have no idea if the robber is going to just shoot you so as to not leave any witnesses. Sometimes when I’m in a morbid mood I read over all of the case files of all the people executed in Texas. You would be utterly amazed at case after case of some robber holding up a shithole store for forty dollars, and then just killing the poor clerk for no reason. Trust me, robbery is about more than just “stuff.” It’s a crime of intimidation, often accompanied by deadly force, and if one’s life is in danger, there is _nothing_ barbaric about killing the criminal in question. The criminal is the one who’s the barbarian. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/117 "2008-09-20T01:55:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > If you’re being robbed by an armed robber you have no idea if the robber is going to just shoot you so as to not leave any witnesses. Sometimes when I’m in a morbid mood I read over all of the case files of all the people executed in Texas. You would be utterly amazed at case after case of some robber holding up a shithole store for forty dollars, and then just killing the poor clerk for no reason. Trust me, robbery is about more than just “stuff.” It’s a crime of intimidation, often accompanied by deadly force, and if one’s life is in danger, there is _nothing_ barbaric about killing the criminal in question. The criminal is the one who’s the barbarian. Cool. Relatively though not a many of us have been robbed at gun point as there aren’t as many guns. A armed robbery of any sort here makes national news both paper and TV. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/118 "2008-09-20T02:46:54Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > We know of guns. A lot of us have been in the armed forces, what with National Service being widespread. We’re just not that interested. > > As is the case in most of Europe. Population density is higher, so land for hunting gets more expensive - but it’s not out of reach and there’s certainly no class barriers to cross. My decidedly blue-collar BIL in Denmark hunts deer. Licensing requirements are a bit tougher, because a bullet that flies wild has a bigger chance of hitting something or someone it shouldn’t - but it’s not at all impossible, nor is it outrageously expensive, nor are working-class people ostracized. My Danish husband grew up in a family of hunters (farmers), they even own their own hunting ground. They are anything but royalty. Both my FIL and my husband served in the military, my husband as a volunteer. Both excelled at marksmanship, my husband earned some commendations and was, I was told, one of the best at the time. My husband does not particularly like weapons and has never hunted, though he would eat the meat. He has never had any desire whatsoever to own a gun, and has never even practiced after he left the army. He doesn’t like guns any more than he likes lousy food and cramped accommodation. Armed robbery in Denmark makes the national news, and a shooting is a huge deal. Danes don’t feel particularly oppressed by the fact that it isn’t too easy to own a gun. In fact I guess most of them would still not want them even if there were being given for free at a corner stand. The UK is not DK, but I think the attitudes are pretty close. They just like it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Library\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cab0a1/32.png) [@Library\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Library_Boy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/119 "2008-09-20T05:18:39Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > This. > > I mean, it’s here in the thread too. > > British people are - by and large - quite happy not to have guns. _This is the normal state of things for us_. It’s not some deficiency for which we require sympathy or remedy. And that’s fine. But there also seems to be a bit of attitude that because we do have guns, that is some deficiency for which we require scorn. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/120 "2008-09-20T08:08:59Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Well, there’s no reason to stand on the sidelines and discuss stuff like this. I’m trying to be reasonable and polite and have a genuine debate here and I do not think we have failed in that, at all. If all the ridiculous threads about politics and religion, that have people flinging every thinly-disguised insult in the book at each other, can stay in GD, then so can this one. I agree; I think your tone has been exemplary. You have drawn some rather broad-brush conclusions, but you seem to be prepared to have your preconceptions challenged. One thing I’d like you to note is the proportion of Brits in this thread who favour US-style gun ownership laws in the UK: namely, zero. I know the plural of anecdote is not yadda yadda yadda, so have a look at this [2004 Gallup poll](http://www.gallup.com/poll/16990/Britons-Aim-Tougher-Gun-Laws.aspx): > [@](#): > > roughly 8 in 10 British adults (79%) feel gun laws should be stricter Now, you can draw a single conclusion about that attitude, based on an opinion you hold that looks to me like an accusation of cultural inferiority - and add a few comments that look like a mildly patronising admonition that we don’t know what’s good for us - or perhaps you can take into account the actual explanations offered by several real-live Brits, directly to you in this thread. Namely, for most Brits, guns aren’t an issue. I live my life without seeing a gun for months on end. The only time I see them is at airports or around military institutions. I never consider that an attacker will have one, because the likelihood of that is vanishingly small. There simply aren’t enough guns in general society to make them an issue (some inner city areas aside) for me, or anyone else I know. And we prefer it that way. The US is a different matter entirely, and not one that I feel us Brits are qualified to comment on. I have a gut feeling about it myself, but the situation is way more complicated than I’m likely to be able to understand, so it’s best left unsaid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266.md?page=7)