# Was there strong opposition to the UK gun bans? Could the same happen in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266 "2008-09-19T03:53:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/121 "2008-09-20T08:40:57Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > One thing I’d like you to note is the proportion of Brits in this thread who favour US-style gun ownership laws in the UK: namely, zero. Just like to add another name to this list. And as I currently live in Greece, I’ll add some more anecdote from another corner of Europe (I’ve no idea of the actual gun laws here). I live in a rural community and quite a lot of my Greek neighbours own a shotgun or hunting rifle. Hunting rabbit, hare and wild birds is a common pastime for all classes of local people. Owning a handgun, and viewing gun ownership as a measure of self defence, would be regarded as odd. In the cities no one owns guns. Crimes involving guns are national news. The (perceived) US attitude to guns is thought of as weird. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/122 "2008-09-20T08:58:37Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Here in America everyone can hunt if he wants to. There are wide open lands available to anyone, and hunting is enjoyed by all social classes, not just the high-ups. This, to the best of my knowledge, is not true. The restrictions on hunting in various parts of the US are actually more strenuous than Australia’s gun laws; sure, you can (depending on state) own a semi-auto AK-47 knockoff with a night-vision sight, bayonet, and (if you pay the appropriate fees), a silencer- but you can’t take it hunting with you, meaning the only places you can shoot it are… at a shooting range. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that) Similarly, you have a very limited “season”- often a week or so, I’m told in some places- in which to shoot certain animals, AND you have to have a permit from the local Parks & Wildlife department to do it. Want to go duck hunting? Only three rounds in the magazine, buddy. And the magazine needs to be plugged up just in case you can’t count. You want to go hunting at night? Absolutely not! Using a spotlight and/or hunting from a 4WD vehicle? You’ve got to be joking. I have a very good friend who lives in Arizona and repeatedly bemoans the fact he can’t legally hunt Deer because he never gets drawn for a Deer Tag, yet “Hunting Guides” are able to purchase a large number of draws in the lottery to ensure they get enough for their clients- meaning people like my friend miss out because there are fewer tags to go around for the average hunter. Of course, each state in the US is different, but it’s simply not true that anyone in the US can hunt whatever they like, whenever they like, wherever they like (within reason). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/123 "2008-09-20T09:21:51Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > If you’re being robbed by an armed robber you have no idea if the robber is going to just shoot you so as to not leave any witnesses. Sometimes when I’m in a morbid mood I read over all of the case files of all the people executed in Texas. You would be utterly amazed at case after case of some robber holding up a shithole store for forty dollars, and then just killing the poor clerk for no reason. Trust me, robbery is about more than just “stuff.” It’s a crime of intimidation, often accompanied by deadly force, and if one’s life is in danger, there is _nothing_ barbaric about killing the criminal in question. The criminal is the one who’s the barbarian. In Britain, the vast majority of armed robberies take place with nobody getting injured. If somebody does get shot, it’s the lead story on the evening news, just because it’s so rare. There has to be something deeply entrenched in our attitudes towards guns, on both sides of weapon, that causes this to be so different, rather than there being a single overriding characteristic of ‘robbery’ or ‘criminal’. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/124 "2008-09-20T09:30:04Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > both sides of weapon of THE weapon. Need more coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/125 "2008-09-20T09:40:30Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > If you’re being robbed by an armed robber you have no idea if the robber is going to just shoot you so as to not leave any witnesses. Sometimes when I’m in a morbid mood I read over all of the case files of all the people executed in Texas. You would be utterly amazed at case after case of some robber holding up a shithole store for forty dollars, and then just killing the poor clerk for no reason. Trust me, robbery is about more than just “stuff.” It’s a crime of intimidation, often accompanied by deadly force, and if one’s life is in danger, there is _nothing_ barbaric about killing the criminal in question. The criminal is the one who’s the barbarian. The shopkeeper having a gun is hardly likely to make a difference in that scenario, since he’ll be too dead to use it. Guns in general aren’t very good for self defense, because the bad guy tends to shoot first, being a bad guy. And unlike in Westerns, in the real world the guy who shoots first almost always wins. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/126 "2008-09-20T10:06:25Z")
> [@Library\_Boy](#): > > And that’s fine. But there also seems to be a bit of attitude that because we do have guns, that is some deficiency for which we require scorn. Well, you do have that whole “Might is right” thing going on, a little. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/127 "2008-09-20T10:09:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The shopkeeper having a gun is hardly likely to make a difference in that scenario, since he’ll be too dead to use it. > > Guns in general aren’t very good for self defense, because the bad guy tends to shoot first, being a bad guy. And unlike in Westerns, in the real world the guy who shoots first almost always wins. Oh, but you are forgetting - it’s the deterrent value that counts; because no armed criminal would dare to enter premises where the occupier may have a weapon too! ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/128 "2008-09-20T11:17:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, but you are forgetting - it’s the deterrent value that counts; because no armed criminal would dare to enter premises where the occupier may have a weapon too! That is not the impression I get from seeing shop videos of armed robbers in the US, including gun shops - I mean, who would be stupid enough to try hold up a gun shop? We have plenty of idiots in the UK, last thing I want to see is ready availability of guns. If you don’t make it easy to possess a gun, then you don’t have to concern yourself too much about the deterrant - but once the armed genie is out of the bottle, there is no putting it away again. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/129 "2008-09-20T11:53:37Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Oh, but you are forgetting - it’s the deterrent value that counts; because no armed criminal would dare to enter premises where the occupier may have a weapon too! It may be a deterrent in some cases, but stacked up against these are the ones where the bad guy goes in with the intention of shooting first, just in case. Not the typical behaviour in a country where guns for self defence are non-existent. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/130 "2008-09-20T12:02:32Z")
Sorry guys, did you miss the sarcasm in my previous post? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/131 "2008-09-20T12:45:19Z")
Ummm yes. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/132 "2008-09-20T12:56:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > … Of course, each state in the US is different, but it’s simply not true that anyone in the US can hunt whatever they like, whenever they like, wherever they like (within reason). There are established seasons and restrictions upon daily bag limits across the boards, but they in no way limit one’s ability to hunt, just rules to live by. In the beginning of this nation, there were no such laws and the abundant wildlife came very close to being decimated. Animals like the bison and timber wolf were \>\< this close to becoming extinct at the hands of the early pioneers. It was the game laws that saved them. Were it not for a proactive set of rules for hunting, my state of Iowa would not be a haven for deer, turkey, or ringneck pheasants. We’d have a few sparrows or maybe mouse or two but that would be it. Taking the nation as a whole, I doubt there are many easier places to hunt rather than just shoot at animals than the US. The reason it is tough to draw a deer tag in AZ is because they have a very limited season on a very limited number of deer wanted to be hunted by a lot of people. Here in Iowa, literally, some counties give away tags just to keep the local deer population in check. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/133 "2008-09-20T14:43:22Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Well you are. Not in the completely over-the-top way of DrCube, but he supports your views. So **Sinical Brit** gets to compare **Martini Enfield** ’s knowledge of firearms to kitten punching, but when I point out his obvious paranoia (I mean, it’s right there, post #22), I’m insulting anti-gun people? I certainly apologize for insinuating that all Brits are like him, but it really is the impression I get from internet message boards. I’m enough of a realist to know that message boards aren’t a very good sample of the British people in general, but **Sinical Brit** certainly isn’t portraying British anti-gun views in a good light. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/134 "2008-09-20T15:00:39Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So **Sinical Brit** gets to compare **Martini Enfield** ’s knowledge of firearms to kitten punching, but when I point out his obvious paranoia (I mean, it’s right there, post #22), I’m insulting anti-gun people? > > I certainly apologize for insinuating that all Brits are like him, but it really is the impression I get from internet message boards. I’m enough of a realist to know that message boards aren’t a very good sample of the British people in general, but **Sinical Brit** certainly isn’t portraying British anti-gun views in a good light. Chill, it was a (bad) joke. And I don’t think “insinuating” means what you think it does. Here’s what you said: > [@](#): > > I’ve never lived in the UK, but reading this and other message boards makes me think Brits are superstitious paranoids who believe guns are a volatile piece of metal that will explode and kill random people if you look at them wrong. If you own one, you must enthusiastically accept and support the death of anyone harmed by any firearm anywhere. Kind of reads as over-the-top. But if it was another poor attempt at humour then I apologise. The British, as a rule, are not particularly anti-gun. We’re just glad we’re not likely to have to encounter them in way that is not voluntary. Sorry that you guys do. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/135 "2008-09-20T15:47:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The British, as a rule, are not particularly anti-gun. We’re just glad we’re not likely to have to encounter them in way that is not voluntary. Sorry that you guys do. See, it’s this kind of unctuous condescension that makes it difficult to maintain a civil tone in this thread. Americans aren’t “likely” to be the victim of gun crime; see the sction on homicides and pay attention to the accompanying graph in [this article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States). **Library Boy** isn’t the only one who detects an underlying scornfulness to much of what is posted about Americans in this thread. Much of that scorn is coming from people who were simultaneously being rather touchy about how **Argent Towers** phrased his posts. If you have this image of us in the US as gun-crazy and the US as a violent place, you’re just plain wrong. The US has crime rates that are about the same as what you will see in any developed nation. Any conclusions you want to reach about guns should take that into account. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/136 "2008-09-20T15:57:43Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > I think this argument is pretty much irrelevant, but come on. Guns were designed to kill things. That is their purpose. They are weapons, pure and simple. You can take advantage of them without firing them, and you can fire them at inanimate objects to practice, but really; their purpose is to kill things. It’s not a value judgment to say so, nor does it follow that anyone owning one must ergo want to kill someone. But it is still the truth. > > To me this is an example of people getting backed into defending silly positions for no reason. Gun rights are perfectly respectable without these sorts of mental gymnastics. No-one would question a policeman’s need to carry a gun just because he never has cause to draw it, so why do we need to pretend that guns are anything other than what they are; highly efficient weapons? Were they not, the entire self-defence argument would be moot. > > Okay, I challenge you to a duel at 50 paces. You can have the croquet mallet, and I’ll have the pistol. 🙂 > > I don’t see how this thread is getting pitworthy, incidentally. It’s gotten pretty unfocused, and I have no idea what the general point is any more, but it seems reasonably civil. In that duel you propose, I would almost certainly kill you. Read a bit on the [Tueller drill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill)to begin to learn why. You would get one shot at a moving target from a gun that uses a cartridge notably low in stopping power and letality. Even if you hit me, unless you manage to put that one shot into my brain, I am going to be on you beating your brains out much more quickly than you think possible. It’s difficult to discuss the purpose of guns with people who begin with the position “guns are for killing” and then do little more than stick their fingers in their ears and sing la-la-la. Yes, some guns\_notably the kind **Martini Enfield** likes to collect\_were designed as military weapons. Others, like my free pistol were not. Using it to shoot a person is exactly the same thing as using a croquet mallet to bludgeon someone. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/137 "2008-09-20T16:24:06Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > See, it’s this kind of unctuous condescension that makes it difficult to maintain a civil tone in this thread. I thought it was a fairly mild response to “civil tone” of the post I quoted. I do enjoy being “unctuous” however, I get the chance so rarely. The graphs you ask me to look at seem to suggest the US has similar gun crime levels to Zimbabwe and Mexico, so I guess you win that argument. I generalised in my last post, so let me be more specific. I am not particularly anti-gun. I’ve hunted rabbit with shotguns, and fired various guns whilst in the cadets (including Lee Enfields - which were the standard for cadets in the 80s!). I enjoyed both. But having lived in countries where guns are prevalent (various places in southern Africa spring to mind), I prefer to live somewhere where they are not. And to clarify I’m probably mostly talking about handguns. I’ve not got a big problem with hunting weapons in a rural environment (when used responsibly obviously). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/138 "2008-09-20T17:08:48Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > …Of course, each state in the US is different, but it’s simply not true that anyone in the US can hunt whatever they like, whenever they like, wherever they like (within reason). Here in rootin’, tootin’ Texas we’ve got [hunting regulations](http://http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/)out the wazoo. And hunting costs money, even after your licenses are in order. You don’t just drive out to the country & start shooting. I know hunters & gun collectors. But quite a few Texans have no desire to ever own a gun. Please ignore anyone claiming to speak for all Americans. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/139 "2008-09-20T18:14:18Z")
I forgot a few things… > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > This, to the best of my knowledge, is not true. > > The restrictions on hunting in various parts of the US are actually more strenuous than Australia’s gun laws; sure, you can (depending on state) own a semi-auto AK-47 knockoff with a night-vision sight, bayonet, and (if you pay the appropriate fees), a silencer- but you can’t take it hunting with you, meaning the only places you can shoot it are… at a shooting range. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that) I can hunt with an AK, in Iowa anyway. I am unaware of any states where hunting banned with them. You are correct about silencers though. (In Iowa anyway) > [@](#): > > Similarly, you have a very limited “season”- often a week or so, I’m told in some places- in which to shoot certain animals, AND you have to have a permit from the local Parks & Wildlife department to do it. Typically those are special seasons, bow, muzzle loader, etc. They are used to keep the muzzle loaders and bow hunters out of the field when the shotgun and rife guys are out blasting deer. There is also a special “early or youth season” for deer, turkeys, waterfowl and pheasants around here. > [@](#): > > Want to go duck hunting? Only three rounds in the magazine, buddy. And the magazine needs to be plugged up just in case you can’t count. Once again, this is due to early hunters and commercial hunters almost destroyed the waterfowl population early in the 20th century. The limits keep people from “sky busting” or shooting indiscriminately at anything with webbed feet. > [@](#): > > You want to go hunting at night? Absolutely not! Using a spotlight and/or hunting from a 4WD vehicle? You’ve got to be joking. I can hunt raccoons, coyotes and a host of other varmints at night with spotlights, radios and 4wds. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266/140 "2008-09-20T19:24:59Z")
> [@Library\_Boy](#): > > And that’s fine. But there also seems to be a bit of attitude that because we do have guns, that is some deficiency for which we require scorn. Fair point. Personally, you’d be better off never having had them, like us, but that’s just an opinion and no doubt a very biased one. If guns are what the American people generally want, and are prepared to live with, then yeah, that seems fine. Not really any of my business anyway. It’s the notion that the UK somehow _needs_ guns injected into it that I dislike. Adding guns to Britain will not make it like the US. Taking guns away from the US will not make it like Britain - if either of those things were a good idea anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-there-strong-opposition-to-the-uk-gun-bans-could-the-same-happen-in-the-us/464266.md?page=8)