# Was this 2nd degree murder or was it not a crime at all **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 27, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136 "2015-03-27T18:03:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/1 "2015-03-27T18:03:22Z")
In 2005 outside of a military base in Germany a group of gang members who were also on active duty military service accidentally killed a new gang member during a beat down gang initiation. The point is the individual asked for the beating. He was literally asked point blank before the beating started, are you sure you want this. He was asked again after the first blow knocked him to the ground. Once he said yes again the whole group beat him for 6 minutes. This resulted in his death from injuries the next day. The leader of the gang was eventually caught and sentenced to 22 years in prison for 2nd degree murder. Article detailing the incedent [http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/04/rico-williams-sentenced-to-22-years-in-2005-slaying-75138.html](http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/04/rico-williams-sentenced-to-22-years-in-2005-slaying-75138.html) ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/2 "2015-03-27T18:20:23Z")
Just to be clear this is the definition, correct? > [@](#): > > [Second Degree Murder:](http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-overview.html)Definition. Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable “heat of passion”; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender’s obvious lack of concern for human life. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/3 "2015-03-27T18:24:17Z")
In no place I can think of can one consent to being murdered or seriously assaulted. Legally speaking, that just isn’t a thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/4 "2015-03-27T18:26:46Z")
I’d say yes, 2nd degree, but any reasonable prosecutor could let him plead out on Manslaughter. and reading the article I noticed that’s exactly what happened for some. Violent and criminal gang killing a man during a violent and stupid initiation? Yep. Prison. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/5 "2015-03-27T18:33:30Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Just to be clear this is the definition, correct? 1. a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender’s obvious lack of concern for human life. well my point was he asked for it, or, at least consented ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/6 "2015-03-27T19:05:47Z")
and legally that consent means nothing. He may have willingly subjected himself to the beating, but that does not make the beating or his resulting death legal. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/7 "2015-03-27T19:08:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1. a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender’s obvious lack of concern for human life. > > well my point was he asked for it, or, at least consented He consented to being beaten, not beaten _to death_. I’m sure there was some expectation the assailants would stop before killing him. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/8 "2015-03-27T19:15:36Z")
Depending on local law, I could see it being first degree murder. The assailants planned to inflict serious bodily harm and a homicide resulted. Looking at the Federal murder statute, however, I would tend to think it is the definition of second degree murder. ETA: my heart truly bleeds for the poor, poor gang member who was railroaded into a long prison sentence. I fear for the future of criminal syndicates in the military if this type of prosecution is allowed to stand. This injustice ranks just below the fact that you can’t actually buy anything for a nickel anymore - just try! It’s like totally impossible! ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/9 "2015-03-27T19:18:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In no place I can think of can one consent to being murdered or seriously assaulted. Legally speaking, that just isn’t a thing. Euthanasia?[Participating in a MMA (mixed martial arts) event?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalities_in_mixed_martial_arts_contests) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/10 "2015-03-27T19:28:07Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > and legally that consent means nothing. He may have willingly subjected himself to the beating, but that does not make the beating or his resulting death legal. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > He consented to being beaten, not beaten _to death_. I’m sure there was some expectation the assailants would stop before killing him. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Depending on local law, I could see it being first degree murder. The assailants planned to inflict serious bodily harm and a homicide resulted. > > Looking at the Federal murder statute, however, I would tend to think it is the definition of second degree murder. Good responses. I’d go for reckless endangerment but if the consensus view is something more serious than that I have to recognize I am a minority opinion. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/11 "2015-03-27T19:31:31Z")
Just to be clear, these were all Americans, in the US military, and therefore subject to US law? There’s no way that Germany could claim jurisdiction? Yes, I read the article, but it was pretty brief. Actually, it sounds like he got off easy, unless military codes have significantly changed, because when I was in, you weren’t allowed to be in a gang, or any kind of “private militia” (ie, the loons in the woods with stockpiled weapons who think the government is evil), or any group on a list of “terrorist organizations,” which at one time included PETA, because it believed in committing crimes to make its point, even if the crimes were things like trespass. He’s lucky that gang activity wasn’t used as a precipitating felony to make it felony murder. When he gets out, he’s going to be a felon with a dishonorable discharge. He’s permanently screwed. He might as well be on the sex offender list. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/12 "2015-03-27T19:36:47Z")
[Similar thread from 2002](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=150501) (German cannibal murder) **Revtim** [knew the guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=174724). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/13 "2015-03-27T19:37:15Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Euthanasia?[Participating in a MMA (mixed martial arts) event?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalities_in_mixed_martial_arts_contests) Deaths in the boxing ring and in MMA are sanctioned, licensed, monitored by doctors, etc, so there is no more culpability there than there would be if a linebacker broke a running backs neck in a tackle and killed him. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/14 "2015-03-27T20:24:05Z")
When I step into a ring I may be asking for it, but the it isn’t being killed. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/15 "2015-03-27T20:54:02Z")
Here are the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) articles for [murder](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/918) and [manslaughter](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/919). Everyone involved was committing an offense, including the deceased. The one who died was violating military law by joining a gang. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/16 "2015-03-27T20:58:51Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [Similar thread from 2002](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=150501) (German cannibal murder) > > **Revtim** [knew the guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=174724). Thanks Johnny but that was too disturbing to read!!! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/17 "2015-03-27T23:26:46Z")
I’d say 2nd degree murder is the appropriate charge. There wasn’t an intent to kill the victim but the group (including the victim) were engaging in dangerous conduct. If a group of people beat somebody up for several minutes, death is a reasonably likely possibility. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/18 "2015-03-28T01:25:39Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Just to be clear, these were all Americans, in the US military, and therefore subject to US law? There’s no way that Germany could claim jurisdiction? Yes, I read the article, but it was pretty brief. The two answers = not necessarily and possibly. The short answer is whatever the SOFA says. No I’m not hearing voices from my furniture. I’m not that crazy… yet. It stands for Status Of Forces Agreement and it covers the negotiated details of how to deal with forces stationed in another country between the host and the country providing the forces. I don’t know the details of the applicable SOFA and too lazy to look. UCMJ always applies but so does double jeopardy; if a service member is tried for a crime in a civilian court they can’t be tried for the same act under UCMJ. In this case it looks like the US retained jurisdiction. The new convict in question was sentenced in US Federal Court (and the story identifies him as a former Airman.) The other sentences referenced mention a military proceeding. Maybe Germany didn’t have jurisdiction or maybe did and deferred to a US military prosecution since the victim was a US service member. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/19 "2015-03-28T02:03:04Z")
During my time in the US military and stationed in Germany, the US Armed Forces had sole jurisdiction for crimes where the perpetrator and the victim were both US military member. That was my understanding of the SOFA at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136/20 "2015-03-28T07:34:17Z")
Is 2nd degree murder universally the same as “Felony Murder”? Where “Felony Murder” is defined as any death occurring as the result of a felony. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-2nd-degree-murder-or-was-it-not-a-crime-at-all/716136.md?page=2)