# Was this extortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 26, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909 "2012-09-26T17:59:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/1 "2012-09-26T17:59:12Z")
I know YANAL etc. I’m just trying to see if a certain law may apply to a certain situation. Traveler shows up late at night (i.e. insurance company closed) and tries to pick up the car they reserved. Before this they read through the terms and conditions and called twice to see what paperwork they needed. When they pick up the car, they are told that to get the car they need to: 1. Deposit $1500 for insurance purposes. 2. Have their insurance company fax over a copy of their coverage (impossible given the time) 3. Buy the rental car company’s insurance If they do not do this they cannot get a car and so the traveler is forced to buy the insurance. None of this was in the terms and conditions, on the rental agreement nor is the policy available in writing at the branch. The manager says that they should have called ahead of time and when she hears they did, her claim is that since she wasn’t there when the phone calls were made, that she cannot speak to that. Relevant law > [@](#): > > 76-6-406. Theft by extortion. > (1) A person is guilty of theft if he obtains or exercises control over the property of another by extortion and with a purpose to deprive him thereof. > (2) As used in this section, extortion occurs when a person threatens to: > (a) Cause physical harm in the future to the person threatened or to any other person or to property at any time; or > (b) Subject the person threatened or any other person to physical confinement or restraint; or > (c) Engage in other conduct constituting a crime; or > (d) Accuse any person of a crime or expose him to hatred, contempt, or ridicule; or > (e) Reveal any information sought to be concealed by the person threatened; or > (f) Testify or provide information or withhold testimony or information with respect to another’s legal claim or defense; or > (g) Take action as an official against anyone or anything, or withhold official action, or cause such action or withholding; or > (h) Bring about or continue a strike, boycott, or other similar collective action to obtain property which is not demanded or received for the benefit of the group which the actor purports to represent; or > (i) Do any other act which would not in itself substantially benefit him but which would harm substantially any other person with respect to that person’s health, safety, business, calling, career, financial condition, reputation, or personal relationships. I would think (2)(g) but what does “official” mean here? Government official? Corporate official? Also would (2)(i) be considered as a woman alone at 11pm stuck without a car? Or would this law be more applicable since information was deliberately withheld? > [@](#): > > 76-6-405. Theft by deception. > (1) As used in this section, “puffing” means an exaggerated commendation of wares or worth in a communication addressed to an individual, group, or the public. > (2) (a) A person commits theft if the person obtains or exercises control over property of another person: > (i) by deception; and > (ii) with a purpose to deprive the other person of property. > (b) The deception described in Subsection (2)(a)(i) and the deprivation described in Subsection (2)(a)(ii) may occur at separate times. > (3) Theft by deception does not occur when there is only: > (a) falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance; or > (b) puffing by statements unlikely to deceive an ordinary person in the group addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/2 "2012-09-26T18:07:42Z")
But the rental company is not obtaining or exercising control of the property of another person. The rental company owns and possesses the car, and the stranded traveler does not. ETA: Same issue with both citations of law. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/3 "2012-09-26T18:11:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But the rental company is not obtaining or exercising control of the property of another person. The rental company owns and possesses the car, and the stranded traveler does not. > > ETA: Same issue with both citations of law. That’s why I always ask the Dope. Wouldn’t having to pay the extra money for the insurance be obtaining property (the $40) from the traveler? ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/4 "2012-09-26T18:14:10Z")
I think by that same line of thinking; MacDonald’s extorted me for that cheeseburger Damn them ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/5 "2012-09-26T18:19:00Z")
Sounds like Traveler did not secure the car rental with a credit card prior to picking it up. This should have been done when the car was ordered. If he did there should be no need for the $1500 insurance deposit. And the insurance things would not be needed it he had provided license and insurance information ahead of time. Showing up late at night, after business hours, without these important details means you have to do it the hard way, by buying their insurance and providing a deposit. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/6 "2012-09-26T18:25:01Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > That’s why I always ask the Dope. Wouldn’t having to pay the extra money for the insurance be obtaining property (the $40) from the traveler? Something is missing or I just don’t see it. The OP mentions a $1500 deposit for insurance, the above post mentions $40. Is that a $40 charge to obtain $1500 worth of insurance or did I miss something? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/7 "2012-09-26T18:29:42Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Something is missing or I just don’t see it. The OP mentions a $1500 deposit for insurance, the above post mentions $40. > > Is that a $40 charge to obtain $1500 worth of insurance or did I miss something? The $1500 was a deposit if anything happened to the car. I guess like a bond. The $40 is non-refundable purchase of their insurance. > [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Sounds like Traveler did not secure the car rental with a credit card prior to picking it up. This should have been done when the car was ordered. If he did there should be no need for the $1500 insurance deposit. > > And the insurance things would not be needed it he had provided license and insurance information ahead of time. > > Showing up late at night, after business hours, without these important details means you have to do it the hard way, by buying their insurance and providing a deposit. You missedsome key points. It was impossible to know that the paperwork was needed ahead of time as the policy is not in writing anywhere and twice their counter people were asked ahead of time if any further paperwork was needed and they said no. ---
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/8 "2012-09-26T18:40:49Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > That’s why I always ask the Dope. Wouldn’t having to pay the extra money for the insurance be obtaining property (the $40) from the traveler? Where does the $40 come from? EDIT: someone asked and it was answered before I typed that. Anyway, this is definitely bad business on the rental company’s part, they need to get things into shape and make sure their phone reps are preparing customers properly. But I don’t see any case of extortion here. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/9 "2012-09-26T20:05:19Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > You missedsome key points. It was impossible to know that the paperwork was needed ahead of time as the policy is not in writing anywhere and twice their counter people were asked ahead of time if any further paperwork was needed and they said no. You can’t guarantee complete communications at all times. A company could waive the requirement in the name of good will, but I can’t see why they would be required by law to do so. It’s unfortunate for the traveler but I’m not sure where extortion enters into the picture. No matter how inconvenient, the traveler isn’t forced to rent the car. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/10 "2012-09-26T20:38:57Z")
Could you just walk down the hall and rent a car from the next rental company? I did that at an airport once. I reserved a car from a major nationwide company (the one that DIDN’T advertise “We’re #2”) without a credit card. You’d have thought I was applying for a top-secret clearance, the investigation they did – they asked way too many questions, and called my company for a reference (this was personal travel, not company travel), and even interviewed my supervisor. Finally, they made the reservation for me. Fast forward to traveling day. When I arrived at the destination airport, I went straight to their rental counter. Result? Nobody there had ever heard of me. They had no record of the reservation. They either wouldn’t rent the car to me, or wanted to do the whole investigation over, including interviewing my supervisor. (I forget which.) So I just walked down the aisle to the next rental desk and got a car there on-the-spot, no hassles. So fuck the company that wasn’t #2. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/11 "2012-09-27T15:24:10Z")
IANAL, but I think the only criminal action here would be some variant of false advertising: the traveler was told the cost would be X, but when trying to purchase, found out it was X+Y. On the other hand, there might be a case for the traveler to sue the rental car company for breach of contract; it depends on whether the phone conversation constituted a valid contract, which someone who is a lawyer will have to weigh in on. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/12 "2012-09-27T22:21:03Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It was impossible to know that the paperwork was needed ahead of time as the policy is not in writing anywhere and twice their counter people were asked ahead of time if any further paperwork was needed and they said no. But you **always** need to prove that your auto insurance will cover the rental car, or you have to buy their insurance. Auto insurance is always required. Heck, it’s one of the first things a traffic cop asks when you are stopped: “license and proof of insurance, please”. Their clerk probably didn’t mention that on the phone because it’s so standard they just assumed you would know it. Maybe not the best customer service, but hardly extortion. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/13 "2012-09-28T07:11:11Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > But you **always** need to prove that your auto insurance will cover the rental car, or you have to buy their insurance. Auto insurance is always required. Heck, it’s one of the first things a traffic cop asks when you are stopped: “license and proof of insurance, please”. > > Their clerk probably didn’t mention that on the phone because it’s so standard they just assumed you would know it. Maybe not the best customer service, but hardly extortion. NO, you have to have proof of liability insurance. The insurance that is thoroughly optional, and which rental companies push so very hard, is for the car itself. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/14 "2012-09-28T12:38:22Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Their clerk probably didn’t mention that on the phone because it’s so standard they just assumed you would know it. Maybe not the best customer service, but hardly extortion. Here’s the thing they never tell you. Each rental car outlet is a franchise, and so when you talk to the 800 number (or use the website), it’s almost like you;re dealing with a separate company. While the local franchise is supposed to follow all of the same rules and policies, you’re at the mercy of the individual location. This is true of places like U-Haul and, to a lesser extent, hotels. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/15 "2012-09-28T13:23:36Z")
> [@Sigene](#): > > I think by that same line of thinking; MacDonald’s extorted me for that cheeseburger > > Damn them But McDonald’s presumably told you what the cheeseburger was going to cost when you asked. They didn’t tell you that your cheeseburger cost cost two dollars and then, after you ordered one, tell you there was an additional four dollar service charge. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/16 "2012-09-29T12:20:49Z")
I’ve rented many cars in my life and don’t remember ever having to provide insurance information. My auto policy covers any rental car I drive, so I politely decline the insurance, then sternly decline the insurance. I’ve never carried my proof of insurance in a rental car. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/17 "2012-09-29T13:30:50Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > But you **always** need to prove that your auto insurance will cover the rental car, or you have to buy their insurance. Auto insurance is always required. Heck, it’s one of the first things a traffic cop asks when you are stopped: “license and proof of insurance, please”. > > Their clerk probably didn’t mention that on the phone because it’s so standard they just assumed you would know it. Maybe not the best customer service, but hardly extortion. Except that argument doesn’t work when that information is not available ANYWHERE in writing. The TOC or the rental contract or on a piece of paper from the branch. And when you ask TWICE to two separate people, “Do I need any paperwork other than my reservation number?” and they say no. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But McDonald’s presumably told you what the cheeseburger was going to cost when you asked. They didn’t tell you that your cheeseburger cost cost two dollars and then, after you ordered one, tell you there was an additional four dollar service charge. And at 11pm at night the McDonalds impounds your car if you don’t pay the $4 so you can’t get home so you really don’t have an option. > [@anson2995](#): > > Here’s the thing they never tell you. Each rental car outlet is a franchise, and so when you talk to the 800 number (or use the website), it’s almost like you;re dealing with a separate company. While the local franchise is supposed to follow all of the same rules and policies, you’re at the mercy of the individual location. This is true of places like U-Haul and, to a lesser extent, hotels. Bingo! I talked to the car rental corporate customer service and they told me that the branch in question was a licensee so they have no oversight. I then told them that now I can’t trust renting from ANY of their branches because I won’t know what I get until I get there since apparently reading the terms and conditions AND calling the branch twice doesn’t help. The CSR response was, “I’ll note your concern sir.” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/18 "2012-09-29T15:42:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Except that argument doesn’t work when that information is not available ANYWHERE in writing. The TOC or the rental contract or on a piece of paper from the branch. And when you ask TWICE to two separate people, “Do I need any paperwork other than my reservation number?” and they say no. There’s a contract doctrine called “Usage of Trade”. Basically contract terms that are common in the industry that a consumer should know about become part of the contract. I’m not saying this is the case in your situation, but not everything has to be in writing to be enforceable. It would be like if you went to a diner and saw a sign that said “Coffee $1.49” and you verbally ask for a coffee. That’s all of the writing you have for your contract, but we know from custom that: 1. That provides for free refills. 2. Cream and Sugar are free. (The waitress can’t say, but the sign says only coffee is $1.49. Cream and Sugar are $1 extra). 3. It will be served hot. 4. You can sit in the diner and drink it. 5. You are entitled to a spoon or a stirrer. If it is customary in the car rental business to require proof of insurance when renting without a credit card (and I don’t know if it is) then that will be assumed to be part of your contract. ---
**Author:** ![StephenG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@StephenG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StephenG)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/19 "2012-09-30T14:49:27Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > But you **always** need to prove that your auto insurance will cover the rental car, or you have to buy their insurance. Auto insurance is always required. I’ve rented cars in Massachusetts and New York, and never been asked for proof of insurance when declining theirs. I can’t recall whether they asked when I rented in Ontario, but I’m pretty sure they didn’t. > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Heck, it’s one of the first things a traffic cop asks when you are stopped: “license and proof of insurance, please”. When pulled over in MA, NY, and NJ, I’ve been asked for “license and registration” – but not insurance. They do ask for proof of insurance in Ontario. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909/20 "2012-09-30T15:10:22Z")
If you give them a credit card, they often don’t require (they push, but don’t require) you to buy insurance. They will, however, run a pre-authorization on your credit card for the cost of their own deductible on their own insurance policy on the car. Usually I’ve found it about $300-$500. Most people don’t notice this, because a pre-auth doesn’t show up on your credit card statement. It “holds” the funds for the next 24-48 hours, depending on the merchant agreement with the credit card agency, and if you do crash the car, they “put through” the charge and cover their insurance deductible with it. If you don’t give them a credit card, you have to give them cash to cover their insurance deductible. I’ve never ever NOT had this be the case. I’ve never had it be as high as $1500, but sure, maybe they run very high deductible policies to keep their premiums low. They’re not willing to absorb the cost of insurance deductibles as just “the cost of doing business”. And I’m glad, actually, because that would make car rental rates insanely high instead of just ludicrously high, as they are now. One way or the other, you’re going to be paying the insurance deductible if you crash the car. Either your insurance will cover it, your credit card will cover it, or your cash will cover it. So yes, I think this is pretty standard. Does it meet the “Usage of Trade” contract condition? I’m not sure. But it is very, very common in the industry, although only we customers without credit cards are probably aware of it. Another vote for “bad service, but not extortion.” No, you were not required to rent a car. No, you weren’t being held against your will. You may not have been happy, and you may not have gotten a car, but you still have feet. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-extortion/635909.md?page=2)