# Was this near fatal accident for a toddler the adult caretaker's fault or not?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [November 14, 2008, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675 "2008-11-14T05:37:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/1 "2008-11-14T05:37:19Z")
[Look at the video and](http://video.aol.com/video-detail/picture-perfect-to-nearly-tragic/3664489254)tell me if you think the adults were being responsible or it was just a random, unforeseeable accident.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/2 "2008-11-14T05:56:53Z")
Yes. The fence doesn’t look too bad but you don’t get a sense of the danger in the video because you can’t see the drop off so close to it. If there was another railing the kids could just as easily climb on it.
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### Author:  [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/3 "2008-11-14T05:58:29Z")
No a badly designed fence looking for an accedent.
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### Author:  [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/4 "2008-11-14T06:16:38Z")
No negligence on the part of the adults IMO. The fence is a bad design for such a steep cliff. You can’t see the drop off but my brain would probably think fence=safe.
I do wonder about the videographer, though. Why was that camera still rolling?
Disclaimer: I have never, nor ever will be, the parent of a toddler.
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/5 "2008-11-14T06:28:37Z")
> [@Ruby](#):
>
> I do wonder about the videographer, though. Why was that camera still rolling?
Probably because what you see on television or through a viewfinder isn’t real.
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### Author:  [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/6 "2008-11-14T06:56:39Z")
I don’t really see the question here - of course the adults were to blame. It’s obvious that the kids could fit through that railing, so a parent with a brain in their head keeps their small children away from it (and doesn’t just blame the park for not having a better fence later).
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### Author:  [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/7 "2008-11-14T07:11:21Z")
> [@featherlou](#):
>
> I don’t really see the question here - of course the adults were to blame. It’s obvious that the kids could fit through that railing, so a parent with a brain in their head keeps their small children away from it (and doesn’t just blame the park for not having a better fence later).
Any fence on top of a hill like that, (especially if it is known that it is **preventing people from getting too close to the edge of a cliff** ) automatically means any toddler/young child shouldn’t go near it unless in an adult’s arms, or with an adult by their side, preferably holding their hand. That is, if the caretakers have a lick of common sense! :mad: The parents weren’t responsible, though the park does need to put up a better fence than that as well! ETA: So to sum up, what they said!
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### Author:  [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/8 "2008-11-14T07:28:38Z")
This is yet another situation that would have been prevented by the kid wearing a kiddy-leash.
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### Author:  [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/9 "2008-11-14T13:33:11Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht]
This is yet another situation that would have been prevented by the kid wearing a kiddy-leash.
[/QUOTE]
Not really. How do we know the chils isn’t normally on a leash? This was a posed picture; the parents probably would have taken the leash off anyway, even if they had had one.
Leashes prevent children running away into traffic. It does not prevent parents from placing their children in unsafe situations. You can’t just put your kid on a leash and turn off your brain because your child is “safe” now.
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### Author:  [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/10 "2008-11-14T13:58:21Z")
Uh yeah the caretakers fault. Any adult paying attention could see right away that this is one of those very real dangerous situations where you do not let go of that priority. LIttle kids are always stumbling and looking at the ground, picking up stuff, chasing after each other getting distracted by flowers, rocks, bugs…
Put one near the edge of a cliff and he just might fall off!
Granted it might have been for just a quick pic by a careful adult who was not afraid of heights, line up the cousins for a quick memory maker, then head back to the car. But wo, shit happens but on the edge of a cliff?! Bad decision by the Dad with the camera.
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### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/11 "2008-11-14T14:18:26Z")
I have always been concerned about fences at the edge of cliffs/dropoffs. I had a dog (leashed) once try to squirt through one; she wasn’t able to, because I held her back, but if I hadn’t been hyper-aware I would have been caught by surprise.
I was hyper-aware, of course, because I have fear of heights – more correctly, _fear of_ fear of heights. See, my mother has fear of heights. As a child, I found that every time I looked over the edge of something, my mother would yell or scream and lunge at me. Thus I learned to associate dizzying heights with someone startling me. To this day, my greatest fear when looking down is that someone else will scream at or try to grab me, causing me to startle and fall to my death.
Anyway, years ago we were at the Grand Canyon. There are pipe-rail type fences at the edges of some of the overlooks (they don’t try to fence off the whole canyon). Teenage girls were perching on these swaying pipes and swatting at each other and joking. We were horrified and asked the ranger “what if they fall in?”
The ranger laconically replied that there’s nothing the Park Service can do to protect people from falling into one of the largest holes on earth. He said they do indeed have a few folks go in every year. In the springtime, after the thaw, they send a chopper down to retrieve the remains.
Sounds like the official Park Service position on the toddler would be, “nice catch, Ma’am.”
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### Author:  [@masterofnone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterofnone)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/12 "2008-11-14T15:40:36Z")
100% the mother’s fault. It’s like she never watched a kid before! She’s pissed at the national park system for not putting up a better fence. In reality, if there had been a better fence, she probablty would have set the kids on top of it to get a better picture.
I hate these bastards who want nature tamed down so that it’s safe. If you want safe, stay in your suburb.
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### Author:  [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/13 "2008-11-14T15:43:02Z")
On the news report, the mother said that the adult cousin anticipated the need to jump over the fence before the girl even fell through. When my kids were toddlers, whenever I felt twitchy about something, we just when on to do other things instead of just waiting for something bad to happen. The parents displayed a potentially lethal lack of situational awareness in this case.
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### Author:  [@dawson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dawson)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/14 "2008-11-14T16:01:12Z")
The mothers response to the event is almost as sickening as watching the child go over the fence. Her attitude is a prime example of what is wrong with today’s society - blame someone else for your negligence. It’s always someone else’s fault, you are never responsible, let’s rely on someone or something else to fix our problems.
If that child lives to adulthood if will only be by sheer luck.
For the record I am the father of a toddler.
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### Author:  [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/15 "2008-11-14T16:20:09Z")
Absolutely the parent’s negligence.It’s a parent’s responsibility to make sure the areas they take their toddlers to is safe. That fence in no way restrains a toddler.
Now if it was a 5 ft high chain link fence, and some of the clips holding it to the top bar were missing, so the kid slipped through, I’d agree it was not the parent’s fault - it’s a reasonable expectation that a fence at a park will be maintained. But that fence was obviously inadequate for the task of restraining todders (or anyone), so the kids shouldn’t have been there.
ETA: Father of 3 kids. I wouldn’t let my 4 year old within 500 yards of that fence - the first thing she’d do is climb through/over it, just because it’s a fence.
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### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/16 "2008-11-14T16:52:19Z")
> [@masterofnone](#):
>
> 100% the mother’s fault. It’s like she never watched a kid before! She’s pissed at the national park system for not putting up a better fence. In reality, if there had been a better fence, she probablty would have set the kids on top of it to get a better picture.
>
> I hate these bastards who want nature tamed down so that it’s safe. If you want safe, stay in your suburb.
This.
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/17 "2008-11-14T17:14:30Z")
> [@Sailboat](#):
>
> I was hyper-aware, of course, because I have fear of heights – more correctly, _fear of_ fear of heights.
Me too, but I also have just plain old fear of heights. I look at a fence like that, and the cliff, and I don’t see the fence, I see the holes in it.
Toddlers near a cliff, with any kind of fence, should set off any reasonable adult’s red alert.
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/18 "2008-11-14T17:16:59Z")
There is no way in hell I would let a kid that age & size get next to that fence without me standing RIGHT THERE, and probably holding tight to her hand as well. It’s like being in a parking lot…you hang onto them, because they might be standing right with you, but you never know when they are going to decide to run. And, as other people have said…there was nothing about that fence that was a “hidden danger.” It didn’t collapse unexpectedly or anything…there was a HUGE GAP that the kid could have practically walked through. Totally the adult’s fault.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/19 "2008-11-14T17:43:30Z")
> [@masterofnone](#):
>
> 100% the mother’s fault. It’s like she never watched a kid before! She’s pissed at the national park system for not putting up a better fence. In reality, if there had been a better fence, she probablty would have set the kids on top of it to get a better picture.
>
> I hate these bastards who want nature tamed down so that it’s safe. If you want safe, stay in your suburb.
That reminds me of a trail in Zion Park that in some spots had metal rings and toe holds cut into the cliff as the only way to proceed.
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### Author:  [@Hanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hanna)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-near-fatal-accident-for-a-toddler-the-adult-caretakers-fault-or-not/472675/20 "2008-11-14T17:51:42Z")
I agree - mother’s fault. She could see the fence, and the drop-off and assess the situation. I wouldn’t have let my dog near it (or off-leash in his case) next to that type of fence knowing about the drop-off on the other side; what the hell was she thinking? Really bad judgment that could have been tragic.
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