# Was this shooting morally justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 17, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377 "2014-07-17T17:16:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/41 "2014-07-17T19:12:55Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > 1. Please explain how Jodie should have shot to disable. Where do you want her to aim? What does “shoot to disable” even mean, outside of _Star Trek_? First shot missed. Second shot disabled. Third, fourth and fifth shots were the blind rage, pumping bullets into a human being who no longer represented a danger. A very serious pathology shared with serial killers. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/42 "2014-07-17T19:15:59Z")
The guy is soaking wet, the kitchen window is open, her key worked, she (presumably) recognized the furniture in the living room, and the fridge is identical to hers all argue for her being in the correct house. Furthermore the bad guy didn’t start the conversation with “Who are you?” or “What are you doing in my house?” 100% justified. OH, and shoot to disable? Shoot at the ankles? Riiight. No such thing as shoot to disable. Ankles? You would be lucky as hell to hit them on purpose if you were aiming at them. When the adrenaline is flowing, all your marksmanship skill go to hell. This is why police are taught to shoot for the center of mass. If you are lucky you will get a hit somewhere (maybe an ankle) Joseph Wambaugh (former cop) puts lots of cop stories into his novels. He had a scene in one of his novels where a bunch of officers are crouched in a hallway with a barricaded suspect at the end of the hall. One officer notices a solitary light bulb on the ceiling that would allow the suspect to see them and accurately aim for them. Several officers start shooting a non moving light bulb and they all miss. That is the effect of adrenaline. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/43 "2014-07-17T19:16:57Z")
I’d be curious to hear the intruder’s story, even though he’d probably be lying anyway. Just to hear what strange reason an intruder would have for drinking milk out of a carton in a house he broke into (why?) After he was crippled with shots to both knees, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/44 "2014-07-17T19:18:50Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > First shot missed. **Second shot disabled.** Third, fourth and fifth shots were the blind rage, pumping bullets into a human being who no longer represented a danger. A very serious pathology shared with serial killers. One bullet alone often is NOT sufficient to disable. It’s not as cut-and-dried simple as you think. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/45 "2014-07-17T19:20:32Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > First shot missed. Second shot disabled.\*\*Third, fourth and fifth shots were the blind rage, pumping bullets into a human being who no longer represented a danger. \*\* A very serious pathology shared with serial killers. More like quivering fear, adrenaline and panic. Get real. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/46 "2014-07-17T19:23:41Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > First shot missed. Second shot disabled. Third, fourth and fifth shots were the blind rage, pumping bullets into a human being who no longer represented a danger. A very serious pathology shared with serial killers. First off how do you know the second shot disabled? Maybe you have ice water in your veins and perfect shot placement and x-ray vision to know exactly where the second shot went, but this isn’t TV and you aren’t Jack Bauer/James Bond/Dirty Harry It might have also missed, or been just a nick in his arm. Self defense training and Police training all train that you keep pulling the trigger until A) the suspect is down or B) The gun goes click in which case you reload. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/47 "2014-07-17T19:24:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Fully justified. > > However, she should have shot his knees or ankles. > > Also she should have heard him out, although he may have been bluffing and buying time in order to reach the knife. Could you do that? You’re in a panic. It’s dark. You’re worried about your child. You probably have never had to do much shooting of humans before. He’s bigger than you. He’s really close. He won’t do as you’re telling him to de-escalate the situation. A knife is nearby. Would you really take your eyes off of his center mass to locate a knee or ankle when you can’t see really well? Would you take a chance of him over-powering you and getting the gun? Then having access to your daughter? Would you really give him the opportunity to get a knife too? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/48 "2014-07-17T19:25:33Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > First shot missed. Second shot disabled. Third, fourth and fifth shots were the blind rage, pumping bullets into a human being who no longer represented a danger. A very serious pathology shared with serial killers. Or a terrified mother, who like in many a horror movie, allows her adrenalin to convince her that he still might get up and harm her kid. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/49 "2014-07-17T19:27:24Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > You skipped a step… after “not the next four,” it should say, “she then pulls the trigger four or five more times, and when she realizes it’s not making loud noises any more…” Don’t make me do the thing with the gizmo. They just cleaned up in here. The OP specifies that Jodie’s packing a 36 Lady Smith, which holds a maximum of five bullets. She fires till she can’t fire any more. In theory she has a speedloader available, but in practice if five bullets have not solved the problem more will not help. > [@Anaamika](#): > > As others have said, the reaction is all wrong and CREEPY. Someone points a gun at most people and the reaction is more like “Jesus christ, lady, don’t shoot me!” He should have complied. > > – gun owning bleeding heart liberal here > > ETA - shot his knees or ankles, hah. Not that easy to do, even when you have practiced. Practicing in a range is not the same as facing down a potentially armed opponent. And nobody practices shooting knees and ankles on the range. > [@jayrey](#): > > Fully justified. I can only hope I would be as calm if it ever happened to me. You read the story as Jodie being calm? I meant her to come off as bloody terrified; did I fail? > [@jtur88](#): > > First shot missed. Second shot disabled. Third, fourth and fifth shots were the blind rage, pumping bullets into a human being who no longer represented a danger. A very serious pathology shared with serial killers. Hold on a second. I don’t actually care about the BOARD rules, but I must consult the Skald!Guidelines before responding. :: checks the SGs, eliminates 7 out of 9 possible responses, flips a coin :: Where in the name of Athena daughter of Metis daughter of Tethys daughter of Gaia the Self-created are you from? Narnia? Prydain? Oz? There’s no evidence Jodie was in a blind rage. There’s evidence that she was scared shitless. A large man has broken into her house and is coming at her. Is she supposed to kiss him? In such a situation you keep firing until it’s obvious the threat is over, or until you’re out of ammunition. Yes, her second shot lands, but she doesn’t know where, as she is not Jessie Quick and does not have the power of super-speed perception. (And Jessie Quick doesn’t need a gun anyway.) And to compare the mindset of a woman defending herself in her home to that of a serial killer is so … 'flicted … that I will again have to run possible responses through the SG. :: another check :: Yeah, I’m just gonna stay silent on that for the nonce. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/50 "2014-07-17T19:28:38Z")
Never run towards a loaded gun. For all she knew, he was going to try and disarm her and shoot her with her own gun, or shank her with another knife. ETA; Also ‘shooting to wound’ is pure bullshit medically and legally, discharging a firearm at someone must be done with the assumption it will kill them. There’s the chance that you’ll either miss, as extremities like knees and arms are hard to hit when in motion (this is why cops and soldiers shoot for the centre of mass) or simply kill him anyway, hit a major artery and watch them bleed to death. So if things escalate to the point that pulling the trigger is necessary, no need to fuck about shooting to wound since your life is on the line. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/51 "2014-07-17T19:28:44Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Far too likely to miss, as has been pointed out above. If you’re going to shoot someone, you shoot to kill them. No, you shoot to remove the threat. If that involves killing them, so be it. Center of mass, stop when the threat is removed. Justified. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/52 "2014-07-17T19:29:31Z")
Sure, why not ? Plus in this case he should have just dropped the milk instead of inching towards the knife, inadvertent as that may have been. I’m pretty sure that if I was in someone’s house uninvited the first words out of my mouth would be who I am. Guessing games are plain annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/53 "2014-07-17T19:30:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You read the story as Jodie being calm? I meant her to come off as bloody terrified; did I fail? Jodie was holding a gun and giving repeated, clear verbal instructions. That’s as calm as one can get in the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/54 "2014-07-17T19:33:31Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The man flicks his eyes at the kitchen table, on which is sitting a butcher knife that does not belong to Jodie. This, if nothing else, justified the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/55 "2014-07-17T19:46:57Z")
OK. Someone mentioned that shooting 4 or 5 times indicates a murderous thought process. I can tel you that I have seen enough horror movies where the girl hits/shoots the bad guy ONCE and runs away, enabling him to come after her, that I would probably empty my clip too. And with my sleeping daughter in the other room? I’d be too panicked to think clearly. Plus, and our resident law dog can come in and tell me if I am totally wrong, that sort of argument only holds when they find out you reloaded. Then they say you were in a killing mood. Emptying a clip by itself does not mean “murderous bastard” to me. ETA. OK so let’s say Jodi doesn’t shoot, or goes for the legs or something. Man overpowers her and rapes her and her daughter. Or worse. Then what? Would people not think she should have taken the shot? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/56 "2014-07-17T19:47:01Z")
If she hadn’t have shot, what would the intruders actions or explanation have been? **Skald** no doubt has an alternative timeline viewer around somewhere to see the possibility. Knowing our luck he’ll be a cancer researcher who has just discovered that butcher’s knives and calcium will cure all diseases. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/57 "2014-07-17T19:47:03Z")
The shooting was justified. Unless the kitchen was absolutely enormous, then as soon as she walked in the guy was already within lethal-threat distance and she was already justified at that point. His subsequent actions - refusal to comply with clear instructions, moving toward her and toward the weapon - only escalated his threat status. Shooting to disable while also avoiding a high probability of a kill requires aiming at small targets (hands and feet, basically), which entails a very high probability of missing. When shooting from close range at someone who is already moving toward you, you don’t get a second chance; your assailant will be on top of you, relieving you of your weapon. Moreover, if you do manage to shoot one hand or foot, he’s still got three other appendages with which to attack you. Short version: shooting to disable is a dumb idea. Your goal is to eliminate the threat to you ASAP, and you do that by aiming right for the center of mass, providing you the highest probability of scoring a hit - and you keep shooting until your assailant is no longer standing. If you shoot your assailant _after_ he’s lying on the ground, only then does it become murder. ISTR that happening somewhere around here: old dude shot down a couple of home invaders in his basement, and then shot them again while they were lying on the floor. He was charged with murder, but would not have been if he had held his fire after they went to the floor. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/58 "2014-07-17T19:48:53Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Jodie was holding a gun and giving repeated, clear verbal instructions. That’s as calm as one can get in the situation. Nah, that’s called bluffing to try and appear calm. No answer for any of my questions? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/59 "2014-07-17T20:00:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Jodie was holding a gun and giving repeated, clear verbal instructions. That’s as calm as one can get in the situation. Yeah… Not calm, her words would have come out as “Bang! Bang? Bang, bang. Bang.” Thud. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377/60 "2014-07-17T20:09:31Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > If she hadn’t have shot, what would the intruders actions or explanation have been? **Skald** no doubt has an alternative timeline viewer around somewhere to see the possibility. Knowing our luck he’ll be a cancer researcher who has just discovered that butcher’s knives and calcium will cure all diseases. This is not an Evil!Skald thread. If it were I would point out that Rhymer Enterprises is not on the side of hugs and lollipops but rather banditry and murder, and that Jodie could not expect any help from any RhE agents, and the fact that a team of ninjas had been teleported in to chop the guys extremites off was simply a dispatch error and the only reason said ninjas assisted with the cleanup and also made her a sandwich and tea was that Athena said to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-this-shooting-morally-justified/693377.md?page=4)