even sven posted that a guy waited till she was unconscious before getting into her bed and having sex with her. And you posted that it’s just another drunken college story. And I think that this kind of behavior–touching someone when you don’t have any sort of permission–is pretty messed up and shouldn’t be viewed as normal. And the fact that people do see it as normal goes a long way towards explaining why rape rates are so high, IMO.
Now this guy was clearly a pretty evil person and a predator of a sort. I empathize and see how even sven would feel violated and emotionally scarred by the experience, and I don’t “blame” her. However, she stated that she woke up with him in the bed - she did not say he was even touching her at that point. She also said she was cogent enough to do a rough cost-benefit analysis and decide not to object to sex. So you are working from a different set of facts.
Again. Skeevy as hell. Wrong in almost every way. Probably not sexual assault though.
As for the OP story, I can’t help thinking that it’s perfectly believable that the guy’s point of view was this: he was a little or a lot drunk, and a girl in a similar state came up and asked him for sex.* He went into the woods with her (where it’s really dark, and one might not be able to differentiate “unconscious” from “laying back and enjoying it”), she changed her mind and said she didn’t want sex, but then changed her mind again and said she did. So he had sex with her.
I just have trouble assigning a malicious mens rea to the kid. It is of course possible that he is just as much a shitstain as the guy from even sven’s story, and just happened to stumble into a situation where he could express it. But there’s no real reason to assume that, and there’s certainly not evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
*even grown men tend to forget about cunnilingus and manual stimulation and assume that to Satisfy a Woman they must have a huge erection that lasts through hours of intercourse. See, e.g., Margaret Cho’s routine, “I can’t come when you fuck me!” So for a teenage boy, “make me come” might translate directly into “have intercourse with me,” without any reflection on his part.
What struck me as odd was when she said, “I lost count, but 10 red Solo cups wouldn’t be an exaggeration” to the amount of beer she had consumed. Even in highschool I couldn’t see ten beers making someone blackout. Especially if she had been drinking since her freshman year.
So did he make her come? If not, can she get him for breach of verbal contract?
not rape. just because she can’t remember doesn’t mean she was unconscious. i’d have some questions for the guy though
I am usually tipsy after my first or second beer. I doubt I’d even make it to 10.
But there is no way to know that the following didn’t happen:
She says: I want you to make me come
He says: OK… starts to take his pants off
She says: No sex
He says: Why not?
She says: List of reasons…
He says: Do you still want me to make you come
She says: Yes
He says: OK, I’ll make you come without intercourse.
[He then gets to work. A few minutes pass]
She says: Damn it, stop with the oral, I want you inside me!
He says: OK.
Since she was so drunk she can’t remember things, there is no way to know the above, or something like it, didn’t happen. We cannot say either way what happened, or what it should be classified as, without more facts from someone who wasn’t so drunk.
This again times 1000000000. For all we know, he did just what she asked for and consented to. A couple of fingers can very easily cause a similar post sex act discomfort to actual sex— and since she was a virgin, this is particularly true (even one finger might cause that reaction in her).
I guess that’s fair. I wasn’t there, and it may not legally have been rape. Like you, though, my first reaction is that this guy is really creepy.
Diosa, and Dolukhanova, that’s a good point, too. We’ve all been assuming sex did happen, and was that sex a rape or was it consensual, when in fact no intercourse may have occurred at all.
She woke up with him naked next to her and he was dressed before she passed out. I think the likelihood he did nothing more than what was asked is on the lower side.
Otara
How do you know “what was asked”? We are only going by her recollection of what was asked. How do we know she didn’t ask for more a few minutes later but doesn’t remember it, since she was so drunk?
Or that she didn’t, say, give him a reciprocal handjob?
This isnt a court of law. Its already been acknowledged that this wouldn’t get anywhere near a conviction, as is true of many rapes with no witnesses.
We can make estimates about what probably happened rather than what possibly could have happened. Given the story as stated I think its more probable that intercourse happened while she was incapacitated than not and for me that qualifies as rape.
Yes she may have said other things that she cant remember but in my view the person is more credible because a/ she acknowledges not remembering what she said as a possibility, b/ she acknowledges statements that may have been ‘misunderstood’ by the boy and c/ is wrestling with the idea of whether she was really raped or not herself.
All of those things make me think she is more likely to be remembering things fairly accurately. I get far more worried about people who are ‘certain of every detail’ than stories like this.
Otara
She was drunk enough to piss her pants, pass out, and black out for parts of the night. Why should we believe anything she said? I’m not trying to pass judgment on her as a person, or go down the “drunk girl got what she deserved” road. It’s just a statement of fact that someone who is that drunk is incapable of accurately remembering detail to the extent provided in this story. I’ve had too many drunken nights and “I did what last night?” mornings to believe this story. Entire conversations and events that other people recounted the next day that I had no recollection of. The idea that she could remember the exact words she said, how her intended meaning differed, and the boys reaction in this story is ludicrous.
Well we’ll have to disagree I guess.
Otara
Just so we are clear on this, you believe that people who are very drunk will accurately remember the previous nights events?
I’m glad you said this. And the attitude that people in this situation who might be too frightened or otherwise physically passive to say no are “abnormal” exhibits a remarkable lack of empathy.
I think it is possible that there are things she does not remember.
I see it as more probable that the hypothesised alternatives Ive read to date did not happen, based on the account as given, for the reasons Ive outlined.
One thing that is hugely absent in this thread is all the ‘dont touch me’ ‘please stop’, ‘that hurts’ and the like that could also have occurred that she doesnt remember. For some reason she only seems to be forgetting things that would have made things OK for the guy.
Otara
Just quoting myself because I forgot to add that she didn’t even remember having sex! How anyone can give any credence to what she says transpired is simply beyond me.
Well presumably she’d passed out so there was nothing for her to remember. What people remember when drunk seems to depend a lot on the person. I, unfortunately, seem to remember every little detail until I collapse into a bed somewhere (yes even that one time when I lost control of my bodily functions), other people I’ve known profess to not remember things that have happened when at the time they seemed relatively sober. You can’t make any assumptions about what she can, can’t, or should be able to remember.