# Was Tolkien a Racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 25, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607 "2012-01-25T16:43:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/1 "2012-01-25T16:43:33Z")
and if so, does it affect your enjoyment of LOTR? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/2 "2012-01-25T16:49:39Z")
What evidence do you have that he was? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/3 "2012-01-25T16:55:09Z")
Elves are aloof but noble, dwarves are curmedgeonly but loveable, orcs are just evil and ugly… ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/4 "2012-01-25T16:58:25Z")
Less so than his friend C.S. Lewis, as much as I admire him. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/5 "2012-01-25T17:02:03Z")
There is nothing in LotR that is explicitly racist. The dark-skinned Haradrim are in the service of Sauron, but there is a passage where Sam wonders if one killed in the Ithilien ranger’s ambush was really evil, and what lies or promises might have brought him to war. Tolkien was not anti-semitic. He was enraged when a prospective German publisher asked questions about his ‘Aryan ancestry’. Other than that, I don’t know what his attitudes were. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/6 "2012-01-25T17:06:09Z")
In Tolkien’s wiki article, it says the following: > [@](#): > > Tolkien expressed disgust at what he acknowledged as racism and once wrote of racial segregation in South Africa, “The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain.” The direct quote is taken from a letter to his son Christopher. So, at least by the standards of his time, not racist. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/7 "2012-01-25T17:12:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What evidence do you have that he was? :eek: Have you actually read LOTR, or even seen the movies? Elves are beautiful, noble and in touch with Nature, Orcs are inherently ugly, stupid and evil, Hobbits are humble but the salt of the Earth (and, it turns out, Fallohide Hobbits are superior to the other sub-breeds), Dwarves are industrious and courageous, but love gold and jewels too much, Numenoreans and their descendants are physically, mentally and, for the most part, spiritually superior to other races of men. To a very large extent (of course ther are occasional exceptions), someone’s moral status can be inferred directly from their ancestry. The further west or north a human group originates from, the better they are (Numenoreans are #1, Rohirrim #2). Racist attitudes are absolutely fundamental to Tolkien’s oeuvre. I don’t know how this affected his attitudes in real life; maybe he sublimated it all into the books. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/8 "2012-01-25T17:22:35Z")
Wasn’t this topic done before? You mentioned racism in this old thread [link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3306966&postcount=1) as being dead. Has something changed since then? ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/9 "2012-01-25T17:26:35Z")
sorry if this topic was done before. I searched but did not find. Mods can close thread if they want. Shitty day ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/10 "2012-01-25T17:28:09Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > :eek: > Have you actually read LOTR, or even seen the movies? > > Elves are beautiful, noble and in touch with Nature, Orcs are inherently ugly, stupid and evil, Hobbits are humble but the salt of the Earth (and, it turns out, Fallohide Hobbits are superior to the other sub-breeds), Dwarves are industrious and courageous, but love gold and jewels too much, Numenoreans and their descendants are physically, mentally and, for the most part, spiritually superior to other races of men. To a very large extent (of course ther are occasional exceptions), someone’s moral status can be inferred directly from their ancestry. The further west or north a human group originates from, the better they are (Numenoreans are #1, Rohirrim #2). > > Racist attitudes are absolutely fundamental to Tolkien’s oeuvre. I don’t know how this affected his attitudes in real life; maybe he sublimated it all into the books. But the whole point of setting up such stereotypes in the book is to allow the individuals to subvert them. Saruman, pretty much a demi-god, falls, so does noble Boromir. Men seem a mixed bunch at best. Orcs are an exception as they were created for nefarious purposes. Elves are painted as wise but too proud and stubborn yet Legolas and Gimli become firm friends see the worth in each other. And of course, finally, the lowliest country hobbit turns out to be the bravest of them all. I’d take a message from the book that in fact, your worth is not dictated by your birth status. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/11 "2012-01-25T17:30:05Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Elves are beautiful, noble and in touch with Nature, Orcs are inherently ugly, stupid and evil, Hobbits are humble but the salt of the Earth (and, it turns out, Fallohide Hobbits are superior to the other sub-breeds), Dwarves are industrious and courageous, but love gold and jewels too much, Numenoreans and their descendants are physically, mentally and, for the most part, spiritually superior to other races of men. Are you familiar with The Silmarillion and his other writings at all? Concerning the elves, we have the three kinslayings, the Curse of Feanor, and The Doom of Mandos. Eol and Maeglin are examples of elves with truely evil motives. Tolkien conceived of Orcs as corrupted elves at the time LotR was written. In the Silmarillion, some of the Easterlings (men) betray the Eldar and Edain, while others are faithful. Towards the end of their realm the Numenorians became great tyrants and raided Middle Earth, even before they fell under the influence of Sauron. > [@njtt](#): > > To a very large extent, someone’s moral status can be inferred directly from their ancestry. To a degree, yes, but that has a lot to do with the mythological style of his writings. It’s a great stretch to call it racist. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/12 "2012-01-25T17:33:17Z")
Tolkien was a clear goodie-good, fantasy, elf-supremest; in a fair world Orcs would’ve wiped the floor with all the others. Orc-power! ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/13 "2012-01-25T17:34:42Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > :eek: > Have you actually read LOTR, or even seen the movies? > > Elves are beautiful, noble and in touch with Nature, Orcs are inherently ugly, stupid and evil, Hobbits are humble but the salt of the Earth (and, it turns out, Fallohide Hobbits are superior to the other sub-breeds), Dwarves are industrious and courageous, but love gold and jewels too much, Numenoreans and their descendants are physically, mentally and, for the most part, spiritually superior to other races of men. To a very large extent (of course ther are occasional exceptions), someone’s moral status can be inferred directly from their ancestry. The further west or north a human group originates from, the better they are (Numenoreans are #1, Rohirrim #2). > > Racist attitudes are absolutely fundamental to Tolkien’s oeuvre. I don’t know how this affected his attitudes in real life; maybe he sublimated it all into the books. Not everybody reads stories with the intention of trying to decipher some hidden real world correspondence. Come on people, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/14 "2012-01-25T17:58:53Z")
Is **Skald** still AWOL here? [checking] Yep, going on 3 weeks now. ---
**Author:** ![SeamusMcCool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SeamusMcCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeamusMcCool)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/15 "2012-01-25T18:10:11Z")
Can we agree that Tolkien was racist against Orcs? Good. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/16 "2012-01-25T18:14:16Z")
Odds are that Tolkien was a racist. So what? Odds are most people alive then and now are racists. If this is a question about racism within his books, I don’t see it applying to humans. But I’m not a Tolkienophile, so perhaps I’m mistaken, but aren’t elves, hobbits, orcs and humans different species? He could be accused of speciest language in the books, but I didn’t notice any racism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/17 "2012-01-25T18:23:22Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > To a very large extent (of course ther are occasional exceptions), someone’s moral status can be inferred directly from their ancestry. And which real-world groups correspond with elves and dwarves and orcs, in your opinion? Nevermind that that men are their own race in the LOTR books- that would argue against the other groups corresponding to groups of people. Maybe there’s real-world racism in his letters - none has been posted so far, but I wouldn’t know - but the fact that he used groups of mythological characters in a way that is consistent with a history that predates his writing does not make him a racist in the real world. > [@](#): > > I don’t know how this affected his attitudes in real life; maybe he sublimated it all into the books. So he was a racist either way: either he was one in real life, or he put it all in the books. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/18 "2012-01-25T18:23:45Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > and if so, does it affect your enjoyment of LOTR? No. Can’t you do better than this? ---
**Author:** ![SeamusMcCool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SeamusMcCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeamusMcCool)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/19 "2012-01-25T18:28:43Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > Not everybody reads stories with the intention of trying to decipher some hidden real world correspondence. > > Come on people, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Exactly. Reminds me of this Q&A with French director Robert Bresson Q: Why did you suddenly move to color in Une Femme douce? A: Because suddenly I had money for it. Q: It happens in Au hasard, Balthazar. I wanted to ask a question about that. In those many beautiful shots in which Marie embraces the head of the donkey, were you thinking of the common figure that appears in Renaissance tapestries of the Virgin and the unicorn? A: No. The resemblance is accidental Q: On other occasions, when he is speaking but not writing, you obtain marvelous effects. For example, we see him dipping bread into wine as he says, “I am able to take some bread with wine because I am feeling better.” But his face shows that he is dying. As a result, we see how humble he is, how unaware of his own suffering. A: Let me tell you something. What you saw in that shot you invented. The less the nonactor does, the more he suggests. The combination of the wine and the bread and the nonactor’s face (with a minimum of gesture) suggests that he is going to die. He does not have to say so. If he acted “I am going to die,” it would be awful. I’ve read a few Kubrick interviews that went like this too. This is a particularly good example. K - I’m not going to be asked any conceptualizing questions, right? All the books, most of the articles I read about you – it’s all conceptualizing. K - Yeah, but not by me. I thought I had to ask those kinds of questions. K- No. Hell, no. That’s my . . . [He shudders.] It’s the thing I hate the worst. So let’s talk about the music in Full Metal Jacket. I was surprised by some of the choices, stuff like “These Boots Are Made for Walkin’,” by Nancy Sinatra. What does that song mean? K- It was the music of the period. The Tet offensive was in '68. Unless we were careless, none of the music is post-'68. People always look at directors, and you in particular, in the context of a body of work. I couldn’t help but notice some resonance with Paths of Glory at the end of Full Metal Jacket: a woman surrounded by enemy soldiers, the odd, ambiguous gesture that ties these people together… K - That resonance is an accident. The scene comes straight out of Gustav Hasford’s book. So your purpose wasn’t to poke the viewer in the ribs, point out certain similarities… K - Oh, God, no. I’m trying to be true to the material. You know, there’s another extraordinary accident. Cowboy is dying, and in the background there’s something that looks very much like the monolith in 2001. And it just happened to be there. The whole area of combat was one complete area – it actually exists. One of the things I tried to do was give you a sense of where you were, where everything else was. Which, in war movies, is something you frequently don’t get. The terrain of small-unit action is really the story of the action. And this is something we tried to make beautifully clear: there’s a low wall, there’s the building space. And once you get in there, everything is exactly where it actually was. No cutting away, no cheating. So it came down to where the sniper would be and where the marines were. When Cowboy is shot, they carry him around the corner – to the very most logical shelter. And there, in the background, was this thing, this monolith. I’m sure some people will think that there was some calculated reference to 2001, but honestly, it was just there. You don’t think you’re going to get away with that, do you? K - [Laughs] I know it’s an amazing coincidence. I suspect an interview with Tolkien would go much like these two, especially on the topic of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607/20 "2012-01-25T18:33:00Z")
Was he racist? I don’t know, maybe if he had more than a few tolkien characters… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-a-racist/610607.md?page=2)