No sure what you mean Bridget Burke - I thought being succinct was the best start to the discussion. Already we have someone who sees only stereotypes in the peoples of Middle Earth and another respondent who sees characters in the book who subvert those stereotypes. Start of a decent discussion, I thought. Oh well.
I was posting originally with a quote of Tolkien’s in mind (don’t have it handy) - he was responding to someone who wanted to make orcs into animals in a film treatment. JRRT says no - orcs are ugly, degraded Mongol types. From that sentence folks in another forum went off on what a racist stereotype this was, and they couldn’t see orcs now without seeing a racist Professor writing about Asians. I don’t happen to see it (or him) that way.
Tolkien was surely a product of his time, and I know he’s not perfect. But seriously. I see the Orcs as simply monsters, not an evil Asian race when I read the books.
All true, but none of this is in any way contradictory to what I said. Every racist knows that there are good niggers and wicked white men: Members of the ‘lower ‘races can sometimes (even, perhaps, most of the time) be virtuous, and members of ‘superior’ races can sometimes do evil, or even be profoundly evil. In fact, members of superior races are often seen as capable of greater evil, because they are spiritually ‘larger’ and stronger in some sense (and more liable to hubris, the true crime of the Numenoreans). Lesser races, by contrast, are like children, weak, naughty and easily led, but certainly capable of virtue, and not really fully responsible for the bad they might do. That is standard racist shit.
I forgot to mention, incidentally, that the Rohirrim, the almost-as-good-as-Numenoreans amongst men (and who superiority is inherent, rather than partly due to having gained the favor of the gods, as the Numenoreans did), are fair haired, tall and (I think) blue eyed. Likewise, Fallohides, the superior (braver, more enterprising) sub-race of Hobbits, were taller and fairer than other Hobbits. (The original Hobbit races have intermingled a lot in the Shire, but Bilbo, Frodo, Merry and Pippin all have a lot of Fallohide blood.)
There are superior and inferior races of Elves too. Wood Elves, like Legolas, are good, but they are still spiritually and physically lesser beings than the High Elves.
It is no stretch at all. Nearly all real myths are also extremely racist. Please be aware that I do not say that it follows from that this diminishes their literary or spiritual value. In particular, I love LOTR. I can look past its racist attitudes and appreciate its many other virtues, but to pretend the racism is not there is absurd, and perhaps morally dangerous.
And I do not think it necessarily follows form the massive racism inherent in the works that Tolkein was particularly racist in real life (well, not any more than was normal in his time time and mileu, which is actually quite a lot by modern standards). The racism in his works may be there largely to give them that mythic quality, rather than reflecting his own deep seated beliefs. Be that as it may, it is certainly there, in spades!
I am not trying to decipher any hidden real world correspondence. The racism in Tolkein’s works is internal to them, and fundamental to them. Whether we are supposed to draw lessons for the real world from it is another matter, but, frankly, the more someone fails to acknowledge and be aware of the very overt and extreme racism that is there, the greater the danger that the attitudes that seem right and natural within the fictional world will start to infect their real-world attitudes.
Elves and dwarves are separate species from humans, but hobbits can be considered a race of humans. There are also other races of humans in the book, and in fact several places where people get their racism deflated. For instance, when passing through the forest, the main characters assume that Ghan-buri-Ghan and his people must be simpletons, whereupon Ghan-buri-Ghan responds with an accurate count and description of all of their forces and their makeup. And one of the hobbits assumes that they must be related to orcs because they are (to his eye) ugly, but Gandalf points out that nothing like to orcs could have such a beautiful laugh.
njtt’s use of the word “nigger” there was in the context of describing an attitude which might be held by a racist. I don’t see how that reflects at all on him personally.
njtt - you make some good points. I always caught what you say about lineage and bloodline, etc, being important in the story. Genetics are much more of a determinant of a character and his/her destiny in the books than in real life (obviously). I accept it as part of Middle Earth, and not an indication that JRRT was himself a total racist. We do have one letter at least of his where Tolkien expresses disgust for the Nazis and support for the Jews.
Yes. The books are completely structured around a massively, deeply racist world view. To what extent that reflects his attitudes to the real world and its ‘real’ races, is another question which I do not pretend to be able to answer, but the fact that mid-20th century Englishman was disgusted by Naziism is no sort of evidence that he was not a racist.
Well gosh, a racist would probably deny being a racist. Stop the presses!
well you lost me with that last answer, njtt. Just because JRRT wrote a novel wherein there is a lot of racial determinism within a “racialist” world really doesn’t tell me that he was a racist at all in real life, subliminally or not. especially since this is a fantasy world, heavily influenced by rigid mythology.
No, they aren’t. The worldview would be racist if it was applied to humans. It’s not racist if it’s applied to elves and dwarfs (I think he preferred that spelling) because they don’t exist. It’s one thing if you can demonstrate that the Middle Earth races are analogous to the real world human race. Then you could say there’s a racist attitude in his writing. You can’t say Tolkien depicted elves one way and dwarfs another and orcs another and then jump to the conclusion that he must’ve held similar views about human races. That doesn’t scan. Elves and dwarfs had existed in mythology for centuries, and Tolkien used his own version of that history in his books. He was working with those characteristics.
I think you missed the point. The point is that people who see a work of fiction often read a lot of stuff into it and assume it was all intentional on the part of the author or director or actor - and a lot of the time, they’re wrong.
I think the fact that he was attempting to create a specifically Anglo-Saxon mythology (or a sort-of reconstruction of one that might have/should have been) accounts for a lot of why his characters are predominantly white. He was not trying to do an uber-mythology for the whole world, just one small corner of it.
So by applying them to humanoid characters, instead, he’s all safe. What if I declare that disliking Jews isn’t racist, by the expedient of saying they’re not human - not quite? OK, maybe that’s a bit over the top, if historical.
I don’t think Tolkien did intend to mean each humanoid species as representing some human race; however, the oversimplified worldview that makes children’s stories easier to tell, where an entire group is bad, and everything is black and white, and our tribe is righteous, but the enemy is morally bankrupt, breeds racism. That is, in and of itself, racist.
good points, bup, but LOTR isn’t that oversimplified children’s story. There are many examples throughout the book of different groups learning about and working with each other. and contrary to popular belief many of the characters in LOTR have shades of gray, they are not all good or all bad.
I don’t see how it’s racist to portray imaginary groups of people as superior, even if they are human much less nonhumans. If someone writes about genetically engineered humans who are superior to natural humans is that racism? There’s also the problem that the whole reason why racism is wrong in the real world is because its factually wrong; as a species with low genetic variation there isn’t much variation between populations, and “race” is mostly imaginary/arbitrary in the first place. In some fantasy world there’s no reason why you couldn’t have “races” that are objectively different from each other.
I agree oversimplified views like that can breed racism. You can see evidence of that kind of thinking in lots of places because it’s pretty much human nature. That has a lot of bad consequences. But the use of oversimplification - in a story and regarding non-human characters - doesn’t do anything to breed racism. And it’s fair to note again that Tolkien’s presentation of the characters was not as simplistic as some people are saying.