# Was Tolkien ever accused of creating a non-Christian based reality with the LOTR? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 7, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442 "2004-11-07T02:22:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/1 "2004-11-07T02:22:21Z")
…or were his books not deemed influential enough during his lifetime for anyone to be concerned about that? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/2 "2004-11-07T02:28:23Z")
Some fundamentalist protestant churches objected to his writings for those sorts of reasons, which really only displays their ignorance. JRRT was a very devout Catholic, and didn’t feel anything he wrote contradicted church teachings. He purposely built most of his tales around the “Elder Children” of God, the Eldar (elves). When dealing with the origins of Man, he kept them rather vague, but included a “fall from grace” in their history. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/3 "2004-11-07T02:29:33Z")
Well, in view of the fact that he discussed **at length** , during his lifetime, the underlying Christian themes inherent in his mythos, I’d have to say that anyone who did such an accusation would be eisegetically imprinting the Tolkien mythos with his own preconceived notions, rather than the reverse. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/4 "2004-11-07T02:34:51Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Well, in view of the fact that he discussed **at length** , during his lifetime, the underlying Christian themes inherent in his mythos, I’d have to say that anyone who did such an accusation would be eisegetically imprinting the Tolkien mythos with his own preconceived notions, rather than the reverse. Is there some source on the web or link that outlines his discussion of these convergent themes? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/5 "2004-11-07T02:38:04Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Is there some source on the web or link that outlines his discussion of these convergent themes? I got my information from his collected _Letters_, and, to a very small amount, from Humphrey Carpenter’s biography of him. I’m not sure what’s available online relative to this – **Qadgop**? Bueller? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/6 "2004-11-07T07:46:30Z")
The great bulk of Tolkien’s papers and manuscripts are now at a Catholic institution, [Marquette University](http://www.marquette.edu/library/collections/archives/tolkien.html), in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. From _Christianity Today_: [Sacramental Imagination](http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/2003/78/9.23.html), by Thomas Howard. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/7 "2004-11-07T07:56:33Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > The great bulk of Tolkien’s papers and manuscripts are now at a Catholic institution, > > From _Christianity Today_: > > [Sacramental Imagination](http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/2003/78/9.23.html), by Thomas Howard. Wow! That answered lots of questions, esp about the difference between Catholic and Protestant faiths. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/8 "2004-11-07T09:17:35Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Some fundamentalist protestant churches objected to his writings for those sorts of reasons, which really only displays their ignorance. JRRT was a very devout Catholic, and didn’t feel anything he wrote contradicted church teachings. There are fundamentalist protestants who do not consider Catholics to be christians. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/9 "2004-11-07T14:36:59Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > There are fundamentalist protestants who do not consider Catholics to be christians. > > Marc > [@Qadgop](#): > > which really only displays their ignorance Thanks for that link, **Walloon**! Fascinating. Qadgop the Vlaandersman ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/10 "2004-11-07T14:56:01Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > There are fundamentalist protestants who do not consider Catholics to be christians. > > Marc You are correct, of course… but from what I hear, JRRT’s good buddy, uberChristian C.S. Lewis, didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/11 "2004-11-07T15:42:28Z")
Yeah, but I wouldn’t call C.S. Lewis a fundamentalist. (And, btw, people have criticized the Narnia books as unchristian, also.) ---
**Author:** ![mike1dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@mike1dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mike1dog)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/12 "2004-11-07T15:49:39Z")
Slight Hijack: Didn’t Lewis convert rather late in life? ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/13 "2004-11-07T15:57:30Z")
Someone’s going to have to show which part of LOTR is reality, non-Christian or otherwise. I always thought it was fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/14 "2004-11-07T15:58:01Z")
Lewis was raised Church of Ireland, but then left the religion. He then converted back to Christianity when he was around 31 or so. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/15 "2004-11-07T17:39:03Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Someone’s going to have to show which part of LOTR is reality, non-Christian or otherwise. I always thought it was fiction. So’s Harry Potter. That something is fiction does not always matter to fundamentalists. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/16 "2004-11-07T18:05:29Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Yeah, but I wouldn’t call C.S. Lewis a fundamentalist. (And, btw, people have criticized the Narnia books as unchristian, also.) Really? Man, that’s nuts. And you’re right, of course… Lewis was too much of a thinker to be much of a fundamentalist… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/17 "2004-11-07T23:00:32Z")
One of the more famous accusations that Tolkien’s worldview wasn’t actually Christian was in a Jack Chick comic where the warning was made that you should stay away from Tolkien’s and Lewis’s books since they are sold next to Dungeons and Dragons stuff and hence are also demonic. An interesting thing I’ve noted recently is that Lewis’s books are not sold very much these days in many of the stores that call themselves Christian bookstores. Indeed, I noticed several years ago that in a store called Kramerbooks, in the Dupont Circle section of Washington, D.C., there are a fairly large number of Lewis’s books on their shelves, perhaps 25 or so copies, which is more than I’ve seen in any Christian bookstore. Now Dupont Circle is a semi-hip neighborhood (well, it’s too expensive anymore to be really artsy, just yuppies who think that they’re artsy), and Kramerbooks (and its attached restaurant Afterwords) is a semi-hip late-night restaurant/bookstore. Kramerbooks has almost as many copies of Lewis’s books as one of the local Barnes & Noble’s or Borders. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/18 "2004-11-08T00:48:50Z")
In case anyone cares, there are several books addressing Tolkien, LOTR, and religion, and [here is one I enjoyed](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0664226108/qid=1099875386/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-3883093-2957656?v=glance&s=books). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/19 "2004-11-08T01:09:04Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > An interesting thing I’ve noted recently is that Lewis’s books are not sold very much these days in many of the stores that call themselves Christian bookstores. That may be related to the ascendancy of the fundamentalist wing of the religion, and what I have perceived to be an attitude that it is insufficient if your fiction _contains Christian values_, their preference is that Christian fiction _actually preach the doctrine_. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442/20 "2004-11-08T08:46:47Z")
Indeed, it seems to me that the Christian bookstores just don’t want to display any book that treats Christian values with any subtlety. That means no satire and no fantasy in which there aren’t any Christians directly making reference to Christian values. They don’t seem to mind books that are mostly right-wing tracts with an occasional nod to Christian values. I own a lot of books of Tolkien, and maybe a dozen of them are about his Christian faith. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-tolkien-ever-accused-of-creating-a-non-christian-based-reality-with-the-lotr/273442.md?page=2)