# Was Valley Forge unusually cold when Washington was there? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 22, 2025, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257 "2025-01-22T17:30:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/21 "2025-01-23T20:47:16Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > The myth of the British “foolishly” lining up in their bright red uniforms out in the open, while Washington’s men dressed to blend in with the landscape and picked the off from the trees, is one that I still hear repeated occasionally. Kings Mountain is the one that more-or-less conforms to this stereotype. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/22 "2025-01-23T21:00:40Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > > [@mcgato](#): > > > > …hiking around the area, those log cabins do not look like they would be very warm. > > Yet Martha Washington came and stayed with her husband. > > > [@](#): > > > > During the Revolutionary War, Martha joined her husband for part of each winter encampment he attended, including the 1777-1778 encampment at Valley Forge. Martha arrived in the beginning of February and left in early June. Washington and his staff were not in log cabins. They were in a rented house: > **[Washington's Headquarters (Valley Forge)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington%27s_Headquarters_(Valley_Forge))** > > Washington's Headquarters at Valley Forge, also known as the Isaac Potts House, is a historic house that served as General George Washington's headquarters at Valley Forge during the American Revolutionary War. The building, which still stands, is one of the centerpieces of Valley Forge National Historical Park in Southeastern Pennsylvania. > The house was built about 1773, and Washington made it his headquarters during the Continental Army encampment between December 1777 and June 1778. The res... ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/23 "2025-01-23T21:02:13Z")
All those sorts of primitive buildings are as warm as you’re willing and able to build a fire inside near where you’re sleeping. Regardless of house or cabin, Washington could probably afford some firewood. Private Noclue & his squad-mates? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/24 "2025-01-23T21:18:25Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > > [@MrAtoz](#): > > > > I thought most of the military training came from Von Steuben, who was German. > > I was thinking of Lafayette and somehow forgot about Von Steuben. There were actually officers from a number of European countries joining the American side. Thaddeus Kosciuszko and Casimir Pulaski, for example, were Poles. In Europe at the time, there was an abundance of underemployed military officers left over from various wars. They gravitated to any war around in hopes of getting employed. The American Revolution was no exception. George Washington at one time expressed frustration at the Continental Cogress for sending him every European officer that came along. Apparently there were a number of them that turned out to be useless, unlike the ones mentioned in this thread who are remembered. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/25 "2025-01-23T22:17:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It may not have been the coldest winter ever in Valley Forge 1777-78 but trust me, it was no picnic. Geo Washingtons army also had inadequate rations, winter clothing, blankets and shelter. So, just a regular cold winter could be seen as a horrible experience. > [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > I think the artist forfeited all claims to accuracy when he showed Washington standing up in a boat that small without capsizing it. I just watched the A&E Hornblower series and at least twice the office was able to stand up to short orders or something- in a relatively small boat. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > With the weapons of the time, the only way you could really stop a huge line like that was to meet it with a line of your own. Right. The USA did have a few volunteers with actual _rifles_- which loaded even more slowly. However, with those dudes the best tactic was for them to hide behind a tree and kill officers at 200+ yards. The British actually complained about that as “unfair tactics”. Really… But there werent many of them. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2025, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/26 "2025-01-23T22:33:17Z")
Wasn’t there an American sniper who took out a British general? IIRC he also flensed the legs of an Indian and wore them as leggings 😳 ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/27 "2025-01-24T00:47:04Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > > [@mcgato](#): > > > > note that the famous “Washington Crossing the Delaware” painting has a couple of guys in the boat pushing ice away from the boat. > > I think the artist forfeited all claims to accuracy when he showed Washington standing up in a boat that small without capsizing it. Nah, the only thing that would capsize it is a fat ass. > [@George Washington to Henry Knox](#): > > Shift that fat ass, Harry, but slowly, or you’ll swamp the damned boat. [https://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/washington-crosses-the-delaware-dec-25-1776-217067](https://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/washington-crosses-the-delaware-dec-25-1776-217067) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/28 "2025-01-24T01:31:17Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I grew up in Valley Forge. Wow, an eyewitness account and all. When you were a kid did you like to tease your grandma about having been there to witness the crossing? 😉 A college chum of mine ended up moving to Yardley PA which is very near VF. Once on a visit to see him when we were both age 35ish, we went to the famous site of Washington’s crossing. This was in the chilly part of Fall, but well above freezing. I was struck by the fact the point of crossing was a rocky and shallow slow-moving river about 3 feet deep and ~100 feet wide. By modern standards a trivial little barrier. Any yahoo in a Jeep with a snorkel could have forded that in about 45 seconds. And the snorkel might even be optional. As a kid who’d absorbed all the hagiography of this supremely difficult and daring military maneuver I was sorely disappointed. Seemed now more like a Klink dipsy-doodle. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/29 "2025-01-24T01:36:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Sources here on the Dope have informed me that this was considered the best formation for engagement at the time. For one thing they were using muskets which the _best_ soldiers can fire off about three rounds a minute, or once every 20 seconds. Having a staggered formation means you’re firing rounds much more frequently than only two or three a minute, which puts the enemy in much graver danger than if they can get closer after each time you fire knowing it’ll take you some time to reload before you can fire again. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/30 "2025-01-24T03:20:54Z")
> [@mcgato](#): > > I’m not sure how accurate it is, but note that the famous “Washington Crossing the Delaware” painting has a couple of guys in the boat pushing ice away from the boat Interesting bit of trivia about the original painting: it was [destroyed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunsthalle_Bremen#Consequences_of_World_War_II) in WWII by an Allied bombing raid of Bremen Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/31 "2025-01-24T05:40:51Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Wow, an eyewitness account and all. When you were a kid did you like to tease your grandma about having been there to witness the crossing? Washington’s Crossing is roughly thirty miles from Valley Forge. Not really related at all. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > I was struck by the fact the point of crossing was a rocky and shallow slow-moving river about 3 feet deep and ~100 feet wide. By modern standards a trivial little barrier. Any yahoo in a Jeep with a snorkel could have forded that in about 45 seconds. And the snorkel might even be optional. I wonder if you were at Washington’s Crossing at all. The river at that point is 300 yards wide and 26 feet deep. In addition to 2400 soldiers, 18 cannon and the horses to pull them crossed the river that night. It was not trivial logistically. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/32 "2025-01-24T05:53:32Z")
Too late to edit: maybe you were at Fatland Ford (where there is large white mansion) which is very near Valley Forge and is point where the Schuylkill River could be crossed (along with Swede’s Ford a few miles away)? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/33 "2025-01-24T05:55:08Z")
General Henry Knox, Washington’s head of artillery, was in the boat, boarding before George. In his memoirs he told that when Washington got in he tapped him with his foot and said “Shift your fat ass Harry, but carefully or you’ll swamp it.” ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/34 "2025-01-24T06:03:03Z")
> [@mcgato](#): > > I’m not sure how accurate it is, but note that the famous “Washington Crossing the Delaware” painting … You mean the one that shows a flag that didn’t exist yet? Not very accurate, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/35 "2025-01-24T12:59:28Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > I wonder if you were at Washington’s Crossing at all. The river at that point is 300 yards wide and 26 feet deep. Good bet I wasn’t then. It was long enough ago I can’t say anything useful about where it really was beyond what I’ve already shared. Thanks for setting me straighter. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/36 "2025-01-24T15:52:47Z")
There does seem some conflation in this thread between the Battle of Trenton (Washington crossing the Delaware) which occurred Christmas 1776 and the Vally Forge encampment which was the next year (December 1777 to June 1778). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/37 "2025-01-24T20:17:31Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > General Henry Knox, Washington’s head of artillery, was in the boat, boarding before George. In his memoirs he told that when Washington got in he tapped him with his foot and said “Shift your fat ass Harry, but carefully or you’ll swamp it.” Interestingly, the real boat was larger and maybe many stood in it- wiki- _Washington’s stance, intended to depict him in a [heroic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero) fashion, would have been very hard to maintain in the choppy conditions of the crossing. Considering that he is standing in a rowboat, such a stance would have risked capsizing the boat.[[8]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Crossing_the_Delaware_(1851_paintings)#cite_note-Associated_Press-8) However, historian [David Hackett Fischer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hackett_Fischer) has argued that everyone would have been standing up to avoid the icy water in the bottom of the boat, as the actual [Durham boats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham_boat) used were much larger, had a flat bottom, higher sides, a broad beam (width) of some eight feet and a draft of 24–30 inches.[[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Crossing_the_Delaware_(1851_paintings)#cite_note-9) Washington’s boats were actually substantially larger than the boat in the painting. Washington and his men sailed on a cargo ship that ranged anywhere between 40 and 60 feet long (12 to 18 m).[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Crossing_the_Delaware_(1851_paintings)#cite_note-NGS-10) Also on the ships were heavy artillery and horses,[[10]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Crossing_the_Delaware_(1851_paintings)#cite_note-NGS-10) which would not have fit in the boat Leutze painted._ > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > You mean the one that shows a flag that didn’t exist yet? Not very accurate, I’d say. A year off, but yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2025, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/38 "2025-01-24T23:25:55Z")
When did the British/American arse/ass cleft occur? Was it something a Southerner like Washington would be an early adopter of ? ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2025, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/39 "2025-01-25T05:26:14Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > When did the British/American arse/ass cleft occur? There is some evidence “arse” was pronounced as “ass” in Britain as far back as the 17th Century. Verse from the time often had “arse” rhyming with words like “pass” or “lass”. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2025, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257/40 "2025-01-25T14:10:22Z")
Fascinating. Which then raises the question of when did the Brits begin switching towards pronouncing the “r”. Which (I think) is the universal practice in UK and UK-derived dialects today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-valley-forge-unusually-cold-when-washington-was-there/1013257.md?page=3)