Was von Stauffenberg a hero?

[Shakester]

@ralph124c

Was anybody ever allowed to bear arms when meeting Hitler? I assume a senior officer would be allowed a pistol-offing Hitler should have been easy, for a dedicated assassin.

No. Everyone meeting Hitler was searched, and all military staff had to hand over their sidearms. Hitler never trusted the German officer class.

[BrainGlutton]

@Shakester

No. Everyone meeting Hitler was searched, and all military staff had to hand over their sidearms. Hitler never trusted the German officer class.

I would presume he was surrounded at all times by armed SS men, whose loyalty was unquestioned?

[Shakester]

To my mind, I think von S qualifies as a hero.

I think the people who say “The German military were happy for Hitler to be in charge as long as the Nazis were winning” are missing a couple of major data points:

1. There was resistance to Hitler in the military, including assassination plots, even before the war, long before it became obvious that Germany was going to lose.

2. People change. Wisdom can be gained, a person can start out holding bad opinions and learn the error of their ways. To me, what’s important isn’t what you used to be, it’s what you have become. So it’s entirely possible that a person could have started out supporting the Nazis and ended up sincerely opposing them.

I think the attitude of “Once a Nazi, always a Nazi” is based on a very shallow grasp of human nature. As an example, there are atheists on the SDMB who used to be believers. That’s a pretty big change, but there is no reason to doubt the sincerity of the people who have made it.

[Shakester]

@BrainGlutton

I would presume he was surrounded at all times by armed SS men, whose loyalty was unquestioned?

Correct. Hitler’s personal SS bodyguards were all young men who had been raised as fanatical Nazis. They were the only people allowed to carry weapons around Hitler.

No cite, but I’m pretty sure that even people like Goering and Himmler had to hand over their pistols before being allowed into Hitler’s presence, and I’m 100% sure that all the regular military, even Field Marshalls, had to disarm.

[villa]

@Shakester

To my mind, I think von S qualifies as a hero.

I think the people who say “The German military were happy for Hitler to be in charge as long as the Nazis were winning” are missing a couple of major data points:

1. There was resistance to Hitler in the military, including assassination plots, even before the war, long before it became obvious that Germany was going to lose.

That’s certainly true. But wasn’t the resistance based to a large extent on a fear Germany would lose if Hitler launched the war he wanted? The German military scaled back this resistance (it didn’t end obviously) when the victories were piling up.

@Shakester

2. People change. Wisdom can be gained, a person can start out holding bad opinions and learn the error of their ways. To me, what’s important isn’t what you used to be, it’s what you have become. So it’s entirely possible that a person could have started out supporting the Nazis and ended up sincerely opposing them.

I think the attitude of “Once a Nazi, always a Nazi” is based on a very shallow grasp of human nature. As an example, there are atheists on the SDMB who used to be believers. That’s a pretty big change, but there is no reason to doubt the sincerity of the people who have made it.

I’ve got no doubt of this. But again, the motivation is important. Wanting to stop the Holocaust is a good thing. Wanting to keep Germany fighting, ruled by a right-wing nationalist government, stopping the extermination of Jews, but fully OK with the removal of Jews from position of influence in Germany is less laudable.

And as people have said, it seems that Von Stauffenberg was never a Nazi. So it isn’t a case of once a Nazi, always a Nazi.