# Was wine in antiquity awful? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 2, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453 "2015-06-02T16:53:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/1 "2015-06-02T16:53:45Z")
In [The Other Side of History: Daily Life in the Ancient World](http://www.amazon.com/The-Other-Side-History-Ancient/dp/B00DTO5FW2) a course taught by Professor Robert Garland at Colgate University, he describes the common peons wine as red vinegar with additional spices. Because of the poor preservation methods available even the Emperor didn’t fare much better, he would just have had better spices and more of them. So whats the word, would Nero have traded his throne for a box of Boone’s Farm? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/2 "2015-06-02T17:13:26Z")
It’s kind of hard to believe that the ancient Greeks and Romans were drinking basically spiced vinegar when you read ancient works, which praise particular sources and vintages. I think Prof. Garland goes overboard in his pitch. Wikipedia on ancient Grek wine has this to say: > [@](#): > > The most common style of wine in ancient Greece was sweet and aromatic, though drier wines were also produced. Color ranged from dark, inky black to tawny to nearly clear. Oxidation was difficult to control, a common wine fault that meant many wines did not retain their quality beyond the next vintage. However, wines that were stored well and aged were highly prized: Hermippus described the best mature wines as having a bouquet of “violets, roses and hyacinth.” Comedic poets noted that Greek women liked “old wine but young men.” > > Wine was almost always diluted, usually with water (or snow when the wine was to be served cold). The Greeks believed that only barbarians drank unmixed or undiluted wine and that the Spartan king Cleomenes I was once driven insane after drinking wine this way.[2] They also believed that undiluted wine could even kill the drinker: the Gallic chieftain Brennus was recorded as having committed suicide by drinking wine full-strength.[13] Greeks asserted that the dilution of wine with water was a mark of civilized behavior, whose contrast was embodied in the myth of the battle of Lapiths with the Centaurs, inflamed to rape and mayhem because of wine drunk undiluted with water. > **[Ancient Greece and wine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece_and_wine)** > > The influence of wine in ancient Greece helped ancient Greece trade with neighboring countries and regions. Many mannerisms and cultural aspects were associated with wine. It led to great change in Ancient Greece as well. > The peoples of the Mediterranean began to emerge from barbarism when they learned to cultivate the olive and the vine. The ancient Greeks pioneered new methods of viticulture and wine production that they shared with early winemaking communities in what are now France, Italy, ... In the _Odyssey_, writing about the concentrated wine that Odysseus eventually gives (undiluted) to Polyphemus, Homer goes on about its smell and taste. Even allowing for exaggeration, I can’t believe he’d do that if the wine tasted awful. Here’s the piece on Roman wine, which indicates a great deal of sophistication about preventing it from turning into vinegar: > [@](#): > > Cato was an early advocate for the importance of hygiene in winemaking, recommending, for example, that wine jars be wiped clean twice a day with a new broom every time; thoroughly sealing the jars after fermentation to prevent the wine from spoiling and turning into vinegar; and not filling the amphoras to the top to leave some head space, leading to a small amount of oxidation.[17] Cato’s manual was fervently followed, becoming the standard textbook of Roman winemaking for centuries.[3] > **[Ancient Rome and wine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome_and_wine)** > > Ancient Rome played a pivotal role in the history of wine. The earliest influences on the viticulture of the Italian Peninsula can be traced to ancient Greeks and the Etruscans. The rise of the Roman Empire saw both technological advances in and burgeoning awareness of winemaking, which spread to all parts of the empire. Rome's influence has had a profound effect on the histories of today's major winemaking regions in France, Germany, Italy, Portugal and Spain. > The Roman belief that wine was... ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/3 "2015-06-02T18:36:01Z")
Why did the wine need to be diluted? And to what extent was the dilution? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/4 "2015-06-02T18:43:09Z")
Pliny the Elder describes noted “first growths” of Rome, so vinegar it wasn’t. In fact Falernian was expected to age at least 10 years. Granted, the peasants made do with much worse, but the idea that the rich and powerful drank plonk is just plain wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/5 "2015-06-02T18:57:29Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Why did the wine need to be diluted? And to what extent was the dilution? The Greeks considered intoxication to be a social faux pas, and dilution reduced the alcohol content. Several sources suggest that it was more that wine was added to water to make it safe to drink than water was added to wine to dilute it. There’s [a passage in the Odyssey](https://books.google.com.pa/books?id=jP0bdmmLV1EC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=odyssey+diluted+wine&source=bl&ots=v-Kl9fQUVG&sig=16Y_LJoa28L8qC6-uMjdZoQ3ZD0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XvptVc2jB6rlsATLyIGYAQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=odyssey%20diluted%20wine&f=false) that gives a ration of 20 parts water to one of wine, but the footnote indicates this was to show that the wine was particularly potent, and the normal ratio was more like three to one. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/6 "2015-06-02T19:50:09Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The Greeks considered intoxication to be a social faux pas, and dilution reduced the alcohol content. Several sources suggest that it was more that wine was added to water to make it safe to drink than water was added to wine to dilute it. > > There’s [a passage in the Odyssey](https://books.google.com.pa/books?id=jP0bdmmLV1EC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=odyssey+diluted+wine&source=bl&ots=v-Kl9fQUVG&sig=16Y_LJoa28L8qC6-uMjdZoQ3ZD0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XvptVc2jB6rlsATLyIGYAQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=odyssey%20diluted%20wine&f=false) that gives a ration of 20 parts water to one of wine, but the footnote indicates this was to show that the wine was particularly potent, and the normal ratio was more like three to one. That was the wine they gave Polyphemus, so of course the story has it that it was particularly potent – it had to knock out a giant with the amount they had in one wineskin. Even if it was a biggish wineskin, made from a whole Ox, it’d have to be pretty strong. If I took the incredibly strong wine my father made, or even a good brandy and diluted it 20:1 I don’t think it would stand up. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/7 "2015-06-02T20:43:23Z")
If they weren’t drinking to get drunk it stands to reason that it tasted good. I believe wine is actually a way of preserving fruit and it should last longer in storage than the raw fruit or juice. If they ended up with vinegar at times because of harvest delays or other reasons they’ve still benefited more from the fruit than if they’d stored it raw. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/8 "2015-06-02T20:47:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Granted, the peasants made do with much worse, but the idea that the rich and powerful drank plonk is just plain wrong. But by modern standards, would it be plonk? Back in their era, of course, it would have been considered high quality. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/9 "2015-06-02T21:36:13Z")
As Colibri said, diluting wine essentially enabled them to make a larger amount of water safe to drink with the same amount of wine. Given that available water was often unsafe to drink, the passages about the dangers of not diluting your wine may be a reference to planning to get _all of your daily water_ by drinking undiluted wine. This would indeed be quite unhealthy, and seems like the sort of thing writers of the day might argue against doing. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/10 "2015-06-02T21:44:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But by modern standards, would it be plonk? Back in their era, of course, it would have been considered high quality. Back in their era? Heck, back in the _day_. knowwhatImean? > [@Colibri](#): > > Several sources suggest that it was more that wine was added to water to make it safe to drink … Readily Googlable, I suppose, but more fun to ask here: How much can you cut a wine of, say, 14% alcohol and have it remain effective against stuff like … well, and what were the principle waterborne pathogens of the time? Presumably you’d be dealing with cholera & the like, maybe other stuff prevalent in swampy water? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/11 "2015-06-02T22:01:34Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Readily Googlable, I suppose, but more fun to ask here: How much can you cut a wine of, say, 14% alcohol and have it remain effective against stuff like … well, and what were the principle waterborne pathogens of the time? Presumably you’d be dealing with cholera & the like, maybe other stuff prevalent in swampy water? This [1936 article](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2122476/pdf/brmedj06037-0026b.pdf) has this to say: > [@](#): > > Preliminary experiments with alcohol showed that typhoid bacilli were destroyed by exposure to 50 per cent. alcohol in half a minute, to 40 per cent. alcohol in under five minutes, to 30 per cent. alcohol in about one hour, to 20 per cent. alcohol in between five to twenty-four hours, and to 10 per cent. alcohol in between two and three days. > [@](#): > > Typhoid bacilli were killed by the pure wine in fifteen to forty-five minutes, by wine diluted with an equal quantity of water in one and a half to two and a half hours, and by a mixture of wine and water in the proportion of 1: 3 in three and a half hours to two days. > [@](#): > > Comparisons of these results with those obtained in the preliminary experiments with alcohol showed that in general the disinfectant activity of the wines was about three times as great as could be accounted for by their alcohol content. This indicates that the acid of the wine must have played a considerable part in the destruction of the bacteria. In practice the final outcome is probably determined by the joint alcohol and acid concentrations. > [@](#): > > The conclusion seems to be that, if wine is to be used for sterilizing a doubtful water supply, the mixture had better be made after breakfast if it is to be reasonably safe by lunch time. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/12 "2015-06-02T22:54:01Z")
Are there any grape vines that could be said to more resemble those of antiquity than others? Perhaps their grapes’ DNA could be compared to that of ancient wines discovered in sealed amphorae. That wine turned to vinegar, but would the grape DNA survive? If a contemporary vine or grape matched closely enough to the ancient variety, we’d know whether Caeser and his ilk had refined or vulcanized-rubber palates. Besides, I’d like to taste the stuff. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/13 "2015-06-02T23:09:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But by modern standards, would it be plonk? Back in their era, of course, it would have been considered high quality. It probably wouldn’t not be considered bad, but it also likely would be nothing like modern wine. Standards and tastes change, to the point that even good wine from a couple centuries ago is very different. Champagne, for instance, used to be ludicrously sweet. Many red wines were made (and exported) in bulk quantities as inexpensive table wine, meant to drank while they were bold and fresh and very rough - even though that wouldn’t fly in much of the world today. Many varieties favored in classical antiquity seem to have been flavored with aromatic compounds we might find quite odd, although some are still made today, such as _retsina_. Even so, there’s direct evidence that ancient writings about how to cultivate the grape specifically for winemaking. That implies there was some high-end product that they, at least, liked quite a bit. Winemaking goes back over 6000 years. We’ve had a long time to practice even before, say, Rome became the hip new thing. At the same time, the basics of making alchohol hasn’t changed. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/14 "2015-06-02T23:11:55Z")
Probably not. Most of the European vines today are grafted onto American root-stock, and wine snobs claim that makes a difference. If it does, then 2000 years of breeding and refinement are going to make today’s grapes quite different from those of antiquity. Not necessarily _better_, mind you, although that is the way to bet. But different. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/15 "2015-06-02T23:17:35Z")
Well, it’s not vinegar, but personally I think [retsina](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retsina) is pretty nasty stuff and yet folks drink THAT today. Of course, when I drank I was never a wine drinker (was more a whiskey and tequila drinker), so perhaps folks really like the stuff (wine in general, not retsina specifically). According to the wiki though it help preserve the wine from going bad after less than a year, so my guess is that, no, the wine drunk by the elite wasn’t ‘awful’ for folks who like wine anyway. > [@](#): > > Retsina (Greek: Ρετσίνα) is a Greek white (or rosé) resinated wine, which has been made for at least 2000 years. Its unique flavor is said to have originated from the practice of sealing wine vessels, particularly amphorae, with Aleppo Pine resin in ancient times. Before the invention of impermeable glass bottles, oxygen caused many wines to spoil within the year. Pine resin helped keep air out, while at the same time infusing the wine with resin aroma. The Romans began to use barrels in the 3rd century AD, removing any oenological necessity for resin, but the flavor itself was so popular that the style is still widespread today. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/16 "2015-06-03T01:24:05Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Are there any grape vines that could be said to more resemble those of antiquity than others? Perhaps their grapes’ DNA could be compared to that of ancient wines discovered in sealed amphorae. > > That wine turned to vinegar, but would the grape DNA survive? If a contemporary vine or grape matched closely enough to the ancient variety, we’d know whether Caeser and his ilk had refined or vulcanized-rubber palates. > > Besides, I’d like to taste the stuff. [Muscat of Alexandria](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscat_of_Alexandria) is thought to be one of the oldest genetically unmodified vines still in existence. In the wine trade it’s rumored to be the wine that Jesus drank at the last supper; not entirely unlikely since it was widely grown in the region at the time. I’ve grown it and made wine from it, and it is excellent stuff with a floral character that seems to be found especially in the Muscat grape. A winemaker I know made a white port out of M of A. I never got to sample it, but it was selling for about $75 a bottle, so presumably pretty good. Another one accidently got some secondary fermentation after bottling and ended up with a slightly effervescent muscat that was as good as any champagne I’ve ever tasted. ---
**Author:** ![Saturn\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Saturn\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saturn_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/17 "2015-06-03T01:25:58Z")
There is a winery in southern France near Cotes du Rhone that was discovered to be situated on top of an ancient Roman workshop that produced ceramic urns called amphoras to make and store wine. In honor of this, the winery started recreating Roman wines by following the various manuals they found among the ruins. They made three types of Roman wines and while none of them were superb or even great by modern standards, none of them were vinegary or tart. One was a sweet type flavored with honey and herbs and meant to be drank as an aperitif. Another had sea water and roots added to give it a strong, semi-bitter taste. The third wine was the most palatable for me and was also a little sweet from the must reduction that was added to it. Interestingly, none of the wines were red, (although they red grape varieties could be used if they wanted), and they gave two reasons for this. First, most of the estate’s Syrah and Grenache varieties were used in the winery’s “regular” wine productions, and second, apparently in ancient Rome, red wine was for the masses while white wine was reserved for the imperial class. ---
**Author:** ![Saturn\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Saturn\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saturn_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/18 "2015-06-03T01:33:03Z")
Found the name of the winery! [Mas des Tourelles](http://www.tourelles.com/spip.php?article222) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/19 "2015-06-03T01:35:50Z")
> [@Saturn\_Dreams](#): > > There is a winery in southern France near Cotes du Rhone that was discovered to be situated on top of an ancient Roman workshop that produced ceramic urns called amphoras to make and store wine. In honor of this, the winery started recreating Roman wines by following the various manuals they found among the ruins. > > They made three types of Roman wines and while none of them were superb or even great by modern standards, none of them were vinegary or tart. One was a sweet type flavored with honey and herbs and meant to be drank as an aperitif. Another had sea water and roots added to give it a strong, semi-bitter taste. The third wine was the most palatable for me and was also a little sweet from the must reduction that was added to it. > > Interestingly, none of the wines were red, (although they red grape varieties could be used if they wanted), and they gave two reasons for this. First, most of the estate’s Syrah and Grenache varieties were used in the winery’s “regular” wine productions, and second, apparently in ancient Rome, red wine was for the masses while white wine was reserved for the imperial class. Bet they didn’t add in the lead though. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453/20 "2015-06-03T03:24:01Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Probably not. Most of the European vines today are grafted onto American root-stock, and wine snobs claim that makes a difference. If it does, then 2000 years of breeding and refinement are going to make today’s grapes quite different from those of antiquity. Not necessarily _better_, mind you, although that is the way to bet. But different. Done to create a phylloxera resistant vine. In areas where the pest is not endemic the old varieties are still grown ungrafted. Australia for instance. (Keeping the blasted critters under control is a full time activity however.) In the US, where it came from the vines evolved to be resistant. Indeed, just about anything can make a difference you can taste. Whether it makes for a good or bad difference is a totally different matter. I would say that the winemaker can make nearly as big a difference as the actual variety. (Which is a bit heretical, but it is fun when a wine is made that uses a variety in a different manner to its traditional style. The results can confuse many claimed experts.) Some varieties are however so utterly distinct as to stand totally on their own. Muscat for one. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-wine-in-antiquity-awful/721453.md?page=2)