# Was Yoda Cheapened by the Light Saber Fight In Star Wars II? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 29, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166 "2003-10-29T03:45:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Murcielago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Murcielago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Murcielago)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/41 "2003-10-29T20:52:13Z")
I fail to see how his actions violate some kind of “Jedi code.” They are, after all, warriors and not pacifist monks. The Jedi mythology is rather vague in the movies and PC games (I’ve never read any of the _Star Wars_ fiction), though active defense of one’s allies and principles seems consistant to me. Apart from Yoda’s silly combat yell at the start, the fight worked for me. After all the Sith crowing about the “power of the dark side” and demostrating their superiority in combat, it was interesting to see a Jedi assert his style of dominance. As mentioned above, this is also in the tradition of the true master proving the virtue of his art to an arrogant student. Wheee, over-analyzing is fun. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/42 "2003-10-29T21:41:31Z")
A [different take](http://www.glitterrock.org/starwars27.html) on the fight… Then of course, there was the commercial “Who da man? Yoda Man!” ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/43 "2003-10-29T21:50:30Z")
> [@](#): > > He bounced around like Sir Didymus from Labyrinth. It was a joke. He leapt, to get at his head. Do you just expect him to swing at Dooku’s feet all day? And, as someone else stated, watch it in slow motion. It’s certainly not a joke. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/44 "2003-10-29T23:13:05Z")
A couple of questions : When Yoda was trying to save Obi-wan and Anakin couldn’t he just push them away from the falling structure? Why couldn’t Dooku attack Yoda when he was busy trying to save the two? ---
**Author:** ![Murcielago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Murcielago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Murcielago)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/45 "2003-10-29T23:35:55Z")
Well, remember **CyberPundit** that Dooku and the Emperor don’t want Skywalker dead, as the Emperor has forseen his transition into Vader (I think). You are right though, that if Yoda could suspend that object he could more easily have pushed or pulled the two from underneath its drop. Not as dramatic, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/46 "2003-10-29T23:43:59Z")
the fight was awesome, Yoda was cheapened not, as mentioned above, any Kung Fu fan knows the master always fights like a God while acting like a weak old man. It also had the loudest cheers in a theater i have ever heard when he whipped out his saber. ---
**Author:** ![Sanscour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Sanscour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sanscour)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/47 "2003-10-30T00:59:35Z")
Another for the camp of Yoda’s sword fight being awesome. The jumping around may bug some peopl, but to me it shows he IS the Jedi Master, because he uses everything around him to his advantage in order to go Mano a Muppet with Dooku. We’ve never seen Yoda fight up until now (ep 1 and 2 speaking) because he didn’t have to. He had Jedi to send out to do the job. Do you really, honestly think that if Yoda gets into the thick of a potential combat situation that Yoda isn’t going to open up a can of whoopass? When Obi-Wan and Anakin are FUBAR and nearly at the mercy of Dooku? Second, having read a few books and assuming they are believable as far as the Star Wars books go, I find it conceivable that the Jedi could be kept in the dark by the Force, after all according to the game Jedi Academy Yoda retreated to Dagobah because he knew the power of the Dark Side would keep him from being discovered. You’d think they could do some kind of triangulation of the source though. Finally, a little nitpick of my own. The folks who say all of this stuff about “wars make not men great” and nitpick about the ‘inconsistensies’ in episode 2 are making flawed assumptions because it’s not chronological to the story. And you can say that and go out and kick people’s asses on a regular basis, because Yoda kicking Dooku’s ass up and down the cavern doesn’t make him great; it’s his wisdom, knowledge and desire to better all those around him through the Force that does it, imo. And **Gaspode** that’s a great site! **Cheesecake, that is!!** LOL Sanscour ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/48 "2003-10-30T01:24:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squooshed \* > \*\*I thought the fight was out of place, added solely for the “_cool_” factor, and was completely inconsistent with Yoda’s character as previously developed. \*\* Ah, but as many people have pointed out, how can it contradict Yoda’s character as **previously** developed when the Yoda you’re referring to doesn’t come about, chronologically, until **after** the events of the movie you’re watching? I don’t have a horse in this fight (I’m of average interest in Star Wars, and never saw Episode II), but this makes no sense whatsoever to me. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/49 "2003-10-30T01:28:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadfly \* > \*\*He leapt, to get at his head. Do you just expect him to swing at Dooku’s feet all day? > > And, as someone else stated, watch it in slow motion. It’s certainly not a joke. \*\* 1. The fact that he was going for Dooku’s head does not change the simple fact that the scene looked ridiculous. 2. The movie is not presented in slow motion. It’s presented at regular speed. And it looked ridiculous. The effect was comically absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/50 "2003-10-30T02:46:09Z")
I do have to agree with virtually everyone about that damn commercial. If there was any scene in the movie they should have kept out of the commercial, that was it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Yookeroo \* > I’m not even all that bothered by Jar Jar. \*\* I’m afraid you’re on your own there, my friend. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/51 "2003-10-30T03:56:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malacandra \* > \*\*I thought it was way cool as it was: harmless, old, somewhat eccentric Yoda suddenly turns into the scariest little green goblin you never saw and it’s not so much a lightsabre duel as frog-in-a-blender time for Dooku. > > It’s perfectly consistent with Yoda’s philosophy too. He is inconceivably dangerous with a lightsabre in his hand, but he still maintains that this is not what makes someone _great_. \*\* Agreed. See, the way I look at it is, a Jedi is NOT a warrior-however, he or she WILL fight when there is no other alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/52 "2003-10-30T07:31:15Z")
The other thing that really bothered me was how easily Dooku beat the crap out of Anakin and especially Obi-Wan. If there are only two Sith, clearly Dooku hasn’t been one for too long, since apprentice #1 only kicked the bucket in the previous movie… so he shouldn’t have gotten powerful enough to defeat 2 Jedi in 30 seconds. It makes them look useless. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/53 "2003-10-30T08:00:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*I though it was perfect. The whole reason that scene was there was that is as something totally different from what audiences expected. \*\* Yeah, it’s just a shame shots from the fight were included in the eight hundred billion commercials for the movie in the month prior to release. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/54 "2003-10-30T12:23:54Z")
I think that the way it was presented is exactly how it should be. I’ve always gotten the impression that lightsaber fighting is literally 90% spiritual - you use the Force to guide your physical actions. That’s why non-Jedi don’t use lightsabers. Yoda was displaying his Force mastery just as well as he would have been by sitting in a lounge chair and moving his weapon by telekinesis. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > Yoda, the one who said “War does not make one great”, now turns out to be a Great Warrior. Remember how Luke thought he was going to find a Great Warrior when he went looking for Yoda, and he was wrong? > > It undoes everything that the real STAR WARS movies established. I don’t know. I always thought Yoda was pretty transparent when he says size matters not, but he clearly is almost having a hernia lifting that X-Wing. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jinwicked \* > Yoda was cheapened by sounding like Gonzo, IMO. The first time I saw the movie with him was in the theatre (when it was re-released), and when he started talking I couldn’t stop laughing for at least 20 minutes. 🙂 “Mmmm, found someone you have I would say. Wakka wakka wakka.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > When Yoda was trying to save Obi-wan and Anakin couldn’t he just push them away from the falling structure? Can you use the Force to move people? I was thinking for some reason that you can’t, but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lux\_Interior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@Lux\_Interior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lux_Interior)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/55 "2003-10-30T12:34:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > Can you use the Force to move people? I was thinking for some reason that you can’t, but I could be wrong. \*\* Certainly. In that same sequence, Dooku flings anakin across the room after lopping his arm off. He also threw him into the wall with his “zapper fingers”. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/56 "2003-10-30T12:37:40Z")
> [@](#): > > You are right though, that if Yoda could suspend that object he could more easily have pushed or pulled the two from underneath its drop. Not as dramatic, I guess. That is probably correct. However, the Jedi seem to have more difficulty using the force to affect living beings, phsyically. Either that or Yoda simply didn’t think that fast. My own impulse would probably be to stop the falling rocks rather than move the Jedi - you only have a split-second to make a decision. > [@](#): > > Can you use the Force to move people? I was thinking for some reason that you can’t, but I could be wrong. I’m not sure. They can use it to protect themselves, or jump high and move fast, but Jedi don’t seem tp pick people up and throw them around. Even Vader didn’t try that on Luke. And with the people he choked, he was, according to the novels, just stopping the air in their throats. Go fig. > [@](#): > > The other thing that really bothered me was how easily Dooku beat the crap out of Anakin and especially Obi-Wan. > > If there are only two Sith, clearly Dooku hasn’t been one for too long, since apprentice #1 only kicked the bucket in the previous movie… so he shouldn’t have gotten powerful enough to defeat 2 Jedi in 30 seconds. It makes them look useless. I really don’t mean this as an insult, but… Did you even watch the movie. They quite clearly mentioned that Dooku was a Jedi his whole life, before he simply up and left and started organizing the rebellion (no connection to the later Rebellion). He is a poewrful master, the teacher of Qui-Gon Jin, and Yoda’s own former Padawan. He’s got more experience than Anakin and Obi-Wan combined. And now he as the Dark Side. There is no inconsistency here. I’ve noticed that most of the people who opposed to that scene seem to base their decision on the aesthetics of the fight, rather than any analysis of the specific situation. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/57 "2003-10-30T12:41:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Agreed. See, the way I look at it is, a Jedi is NOT a warrior-however, he or she WILL fight when there is no other alternative. More or less true. They are like a special service of High Police. They keep the peace, mediate disputes, and stop threats to the Republic. They don’t like to fight that much, but given their profession, they wind up doing so quite a bit. This is related to why Dooku went to the Dark Side. According to some of the other resources I’ve read, his background is that he always wanted to become the strongest Jedi around. He studied older forms of combat (notice his saber shape and combat style are very different from Obi’s and Anakin’s). He’s a master at dueling and one fo the most powerful Jedi - and Yoda. I imagine Sidious offered him something more than the Force - the Dark Side! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/58 "2003-10-30T13:41:19Z")
I feel Yoda grabbed the object instead of moving Anakin and Obi out of instinct. It seems more instinctive to try and stop a falling object than move whatever it’s falling on. He didn’t really have that much time to think or react, so he just did what came naturally. And for plot purposes, to let Dooku get away. As for whether one can use the force against living beings, the answer’s yes. As pointed out, Dooku tossed Anakin back, and in **Phantom Menace** , Dearth Maul used it to toss Obi-Wan back and over the ledge. There was also a _Star Wars Tales_ comic dealing with some guy who hunted Vader down for slaughtering his village. In the fight, Vader used the force to pin him to the ceiling. The guy just dropped a couple grenades on Vader to distract him and get free. I’m pretty sure, again, it’s mainly for cinematic effect that two dueling Jedi don’t just bat each other around with force blasts. Otherwise, you’d have fights looking like the final battle of **Dark City** , which was rather impressive, but makes having a light saber rather useless, and thus, no so interesting to those looking for a good old fashioned duel. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/59 "2003-10-30T15:59:45Z")
Another point that came up last time we had the “why didn’t yoda just move Obiwan and Anakin” discussion: It’s generally a bad idea to move injured people quickly. Yoda didn’t know how badly hurt they were and probably didn’t want to risk it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166/60 "2003-10-30T19:30:31Z")
Well, he may have hurt Obi and Anakin when he moved them. Also, that thing was falling pretty fast, but when Yoda moved it away, it moved pretty slow. If he moved them slowly, they wouldn’t have gotten out in time. As for Obi-Wan going against Dooku, battle-fatigue. He was tired, sore, at the end of a long ordeal, and Dooku was in better shape. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-yoda-cheapened-by-the-light-saber-fight-in-star-wars-ii/210166.md?page=4)