# Washington Redskins - Time to change the name? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362 "2006-08-11T22:08:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/1 "2006-08-11T22:08:01Z")
Article [here](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/football/nfl/08/11/bc.fbn.redskinsname.ap/index.html) For those who don’t know, the Washington Redskins are a football team in the US. And by football, I mean American football, not World Cup football 🙂 Over the years there have been many attempts to challenge the name based on the racists’ connotations of Redskin. I have mixed feelings on this one. On one hand, I am a die-hard Redskin’s fan. I love my 'Skins. And in the course of my love/hate relationship with them it really never occurred to me to think of the team name as bad. I think mainly this is because Redskin (to my limited knowledge) is not a racial slur that is tossed about today, or recently for that matter. I did some checking about and it seems the name Redskin historically referred to the scalps of Native Americans that were exchanged for cash or bounty ([one cite](http://www.njsbf.com/njsbf/student/respect/winter03-1.cfm)) Bad? Yes, no doubt. But unlike the niggar word tossed about by today’s youths (and others) Redskin is just not used like that today. But does that make it right to keep using the word? Especially when the Native American population seems against it? Should the NFL just change the damn thing already? Or is this another PC gone crazy moment? I honestly just can’t decide on this one! ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/2 "2006-08-11T22:36:50Z")
I scarcely think of anything Native American when I hear or say the name, but I do really think it’s long past fucking time the damn thing was changed. I can’t understand why a team would want to keep a name that was a racist insult to a single person, much less millions. Or, hey, why not add the Crackas, Greasers, Wops, Guineas, Kikes, Krauts, Gooks, Spooks, Chinks, Dinks, Polaks, Paddies, etc.? We could start the Bigot Football League (BFL), and then nobody would have cause to complain. Just like Gunny Hartman says, “Here, you are all equally worthless!” ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/3 "2006-08-11T23:18:12Z")
Growing up in the West and having to live amid the wreckage that is the U.S. Interior Department’s Indian Policy, I’d say American Indians have a lot bigger worries than what some football team calls itself. It’s the old slippery slope problem again – start with Redskins, which few could defend (unless the New York Wops was deemed inoffensive as well) and pretty soon you have to change Indians, Warriors, Braves and a host of other icons that were selected specifically to honor Indian virtues of courage, fortitude and perserverence. When you stop to think what all the U.S. government has done to kill, rape and pillage Indian Society, “Washington Redskins” is a pretty ironic name. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/4 "2006-08-11T23:38:19Z")
**Sunrazor** , do you mean the BIA or another department? (Is there another department? I’m just used to it being the BIA.) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/5 "2006-08-11T23:40:48Z")
Just once I’d like the owners of a team to tell those caliing for a name change like this one to fuck off and take whatever happens rather than caving to PC idiocy. If you don’t like the name, don’t buy their product. And by the by, I own a T-shirt that has the logo for the Atlanta Crackers on the front. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/6 "2006-08-11T23:58:15Z")
[Here](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002961.html) is a different cite on the origin of Redskin: > [@](#): > > I think that it is well established that redskin is taken by most people today to be disparaging. What is more interesting is whether it has always been so, as Harjo et al., as well as various others, claim. One interesting piece of evidence is the origin of the name Washington Redskins. In 1933, George Preston Marshall, the owner of the team, which was then located in Boston, renamed it the Boston Redskins in honor of the head coach, William “Lone Star” Dietz, an American Indian.³ When the team moved to Washington in 1937 it was renamed the Washington Redskins. George Marshall clearly did not consider the name disparaging. > > The term redskin of course goes much farther back than 1933. The details of this history have recently been explored by Ives Goddard of the Smithsonian Institution, in a paper conveniently available on-line. Some of the evidence is available in greater detail on Goddard’s web site. You can read speeches by the Meskwaki chief Black Thunder and the Omaha chief Big Elk in which the expression redskin is used, and early nineteenth century examples of the Meskwaki usage of terms meaning redskin and whiteskin. > > I won’t review the evidence in detail because Goddard’s paper is short enough and accessible enough that if you are interested you should read it yourself. I’ll just summarize it. Goddard shows that the term redskin is a translation from native American languages of a term used by native Americans for themselves. Harjo’s claim that it “had its origins in the practice of presenting bloody red skins and scalps as proof of Indian kill for bounty payments” is unsupported by any evidence.⁴ The term entered popular usage via the novels of James Fenimore Cooper. In the early- to mid-nineteenth century the term was neutral, not pejorative, and indeed was often used in contexts in which whites spoke of Indians in positive terms. Goddard concludes: > > ``` > Cooper's use of redskin as a Native American in-group term was entirely authentic, reflecting both the accurate perception of the Indian self-image and the evolving respect among whites for the Indians' distinct cultural perspective, whatever its prospects. The descent of this word into obloquy is a phenomenon of more recent times. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/7 "2006-08-12T00:05:24Z")
The Indian names were selected because they were appreciated as fierce and powerful warriors. It was no slur. I think the whooping done in Cleveland only diminishes the people doing it. I was stunned when Vancouver named their team the Cannuks. That was always a slur to the Canadians I knew. Where does it end. Illinois ,Lake Ontario, Lake Erie all have to be changed. Not every thing with Indian Names is an insult. I am not sure any are. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/8 "2006-08-12T00:19:49Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I scarcely think of anything Native American when I hear or say the name, but I do really think it’s long past fucking time the damn thing was changed. I can’t understand why a team would want to keep a name that was a racist insult to a single person, much less millions. Or, hey, why not add the Crackas, Greasers, Wops, Guineas, Kikes, Krauts, Gooks, Spooks, Chinks, Dinks, Polaks, Paddies, etc.? Yeah! Like the [Vancouver Canucks!](http://www.canucks.com/) Or the [Fighting Whities!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites) ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/9 "2006-08-12T01:24:10Z")
My partner is Navajo. This is an issue that the self-appointed activists care a great deal about, but the average person doesn’t have much of an opinion. Now, should they change the name? Probably. Why? I’d toss that monkey off their back without giving in. Pick a date in the future for a new look with brand new uniforms and a new nickname picked from fan submissions. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/10 "2006-08-12T01:34:44Z")
Perhaps this is a product of my age, but I’ve never heard of the word Canuck being a slur against Canadians. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/11 "2006-08-12T01:44:00Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I scarcely think of anything Native American when I hear or say the name, but I do really think it’s long past fucking time the damn thing was changed. I can’t understand why a team would want to keep a name that was a racist insult to a single person, much less millions. Or, hey, why not add the Crackas, Greasers, Wops, Guineas, Kikes, Krauts, Gooks, Spooks, Chinks, Dinks, Polaks, Paddies, etc.? We could start the Bigot Football League (BFL), and then nobody would have cause to complain. Just like Gunny Hartman says, “Here, you are all equally worthless!” Don’t forget the Hottentots! I found it is very offensive to say it in Africa thanks to the SDMB. (It sure has changed how I see the “courage” number of the cowardly lion in the Wizard of OZ; suddenly, Hottentots are not so hot.) > **[Khoekhoe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoikhoi)** > > Khoekhoen (singular Khoekhoe)\[a\] (or Khoikhoi in the former orthography; formerly also Hottentots, a term now considered offensive) are the traditionally nomadic pastoralist indigenous population of southwestern Africa. They are often grouped with the hunter-gatherer San (literally "Foragers") peoples. The designation "Khoekhoe" is actually a kare or praise address, not an ethnic endonym, but it has been used in the literature as an ethnic term for Khoe-speaking peoples of Southern Africa, Wh... ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/12 "2006-08-12T03:09:15Z")
Whilst the outrage over team names may be something new, so is the outrage over changing team names. The Cincinnati Reds changed their name for a while without much fanfare… back in the McCarthy era they changed their name to the RedLegs so they wouldn’t be taken for dirty commies. Well, go back far enough and the RedSox were the Somersets, the Braves were the Beaneaters, and the Yankees were the Highlanders, and the Dodgers were the Superbasm also the Robins for a while, and the Indians were the Naps. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/13 "2006-08-12T03:30:46Z")
I think it is pretty embarrassing. I would not like it if I were a Washington fan, and as it is I never refer to that team as the Redskins…I always just say “Washington.” I am an Illini fan, and I don’t get the problem with Chief Illiniwek, but the Redskins is just rude. In the same way, I am glad that Illinois “outlawed” all caricatured depictions of the Chief (the ones that look like the Cleveland Indians mascot/logo), and only allow him to be depicted in a dignified manner. That being said, I don’t know what could be done about it except for the public to put pressure on the team…and it looks like this is a long way from happening. Don’t get why the universities are given such a hard time, and the Redskins and Chief Wahoo are given a pass. ---
**Author:** ![Amaranta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Amaranta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amaranta)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/14 "2006-08-12T04:05:30Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Perhaps this is a product of my age, but I’ve never heard of the word Canuck being a slur against Canadians. Neither have I, but the Vancouver Canucks have been around longer than I have. Johnny Canuck first appeared in the 1800’s, so either someone decided to give the only (to my knowledge) Canadian superhero a name that was also a slur against Canadians or the “slur” aspect of it isn’t very widespread. ---
**Author:** ![Amaranta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Amaranta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amaranta)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/15 "2006-08-12T04:07:44Z")
Dammit, sorry for the double post, but as soon as I hit submit I remembered that there was also a Captain Canuck. But you’ve got the term “Canuck” in there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/16 "2006-08-12T04:29:52Z")
According to my Business professor, the 'Skins are the third most valuable (in terms of merchandising) sports franchise in the world, after the New York Yankees and Manchester United. In the context of the NFL, that would make them #1. Sports fans being nuts about traditions, changing the name would likelier lessen that value than enhance it. Football teams aren’t publicly owned. One man, Dan Snyder, owns the team lock stock and barrel. What the team is named is entirely his affair. Any serious attempt to get him to change the name would involve buying the team from him, by someone who is willing to lose money on the deal. What is the dollar amount on your commitment to changing this objectionable name? And how upset would you be if the Navajo nation bought a major league sports franchise and called them the White Devils? For me, the answers are “zip” and “not very.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/17 "2006-08-12T04:56:12Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > According to my Business professor, the 'Skins are the third most valuable (in terms of merchandising) sports franchise in the world, after the New York Yankees and Manchester United. In the context of the NFL, that would make them #1. Sports fans being nuts about traditions, changing the name would likelier lessen that value than enhance it. > > Football teams aren’t publicly owned. One man, Dan Snyder, owns the team lock stock and barrel. What the team is named is entirely his affair. Any serious attempt to get him to change the name would involve buying the team from him, by someone who is willing to lose money on the deal. > > What is the dollar amount on your commitment to changing this objectionable name? And how upset would you be if the Navajo nation bought a major league sports franchise and called them the White Devils? For me, the answers are “zip” and “not very.” Actually changing the name of the team could be a merchandi$ing wind fall. All the new Jerseys. Some fans desperate to get NFL authorized RedSkin merchandising before it is gone. I guess I rarely think about it as I just call them the Skins anyway. Maybe is could be that easy of a name change. Just drop the Red part. I do not see the Braves as being insulting and if it was, then the Viking would need a name change also. Jim ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/18 "2006-08-12T06:08:48Z")
Isn’t “Skins” another slang word for condoms?. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/19 "2006-08-12T06:20:56Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Isn’t “Skins” another slang word for condoms?. Not that I ever heard, but if you go into Beavis & Butthead mode anything said can be taken wrong. [B&B mode] he said Taken wrong, heh, heh, heh[/B&B mode] Jim ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2006, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362/20 "2006-08-12T06:58:24Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Perhaps this is a product of my age, but I’ve never heard of the word Canuck being a slur against Canadians. According to the [Word Detective.](http://www.word-detective.com/082498.html#canuck) > [@](#): > > However, according to “Unkind Words,” a fascinating book on ethnic labeling by Irving Lewis Allen, “Canuck” isn’t really that simple. First of all, it seems that French-speaking Canadians living in or near the northeastern U.S. consider “Canuck” to be an offensive ethnic slur. But in the rest of Canada, “Canuck” is a label of national pride, as evidenced by the name of the Vancouver Canucks hockey team. Go figure. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/washington-redskins-time-to-change-the-name/368362.md?page=2)