# Watch Live Rice defending the Bush Admin... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952 "2004-04-08T14:07:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/41 "2004-04-08T17:59:02Z")
Now, that’s really unfair. You do realize the 9/11 families were a major impetus for the whole commission happening at all, right? > [@](#): > > Ms. Van Auken is one of the “four moms,” from New Jersey, alll 9/11 widows, whose loud outcry compelled the Bush administration to form the commission in the first place. As the four have taken the national stage, their worlds have been turned upside-down again. The personal loss that motivates them?the loss of their husbands?has led them down this path, to find out the truth about what their country failed to do for them on Sept. 11, and what the White House continues to do to cover it up. But as they sit across nondescript coffee tables from Chris Matthews on Hardball or protest the President?s exploitation of Ground Zero images on the Today show, they have found themselves targets as well: accused of being toadies for the Kerry campaign by Bush campaign aides (even though two of the moms voted for Mr. Bush); of being delusional and naïve by Mr. Matthews, like the women who launched America?s failed effort to locate their loved ones in the long cold graveyards of Vietnam. Gail Sheehy has been writing [articles](http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage2.asp) about these women for months now in the pages of the NY Observer. Go to their homepage and search for her. The articles are fascinating. And they were far from cutting Condi a break–they walked out to protest her not coming. > [@](#): > > When Richard Clarke opened his testimony before the 9/11 commission, he said: “Those entrusted with protecting you failed you. And your government failed you. I failed you.” Some of the four moms dissolved in tears. These were the words they had been aching to hear any member of their government utter. The wall around Ms. Van Auken?s well of sadness, cemented over by activism, crumbled. She sobbed uncontrollably. That’s what’s going on in the back of that hearing room, folks. There comes a time when the sniping and clutching at pearls should stop. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/42 "2004-04-08T18:00:42Z")
Note: last post directed at **MeanJoe** , not **Mr. Svinlesha.** ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/43 "2004-04-08T18:06:04Z")
**Squink** : > [@](#): > > - Rice kept coming back again and again to the “structural deficiencies” that she argued prevented anyone connecting the dots on pilot training, airplane plots, and attacks inside the US. She seemed well aware of these deficits in the early months of 01, yet claims that “shaking the tree” would have been an ineffective strategy in ferreting out the information. But with an admittedly innefficient intelligence set up, whose job was it to see that the important issues got the attention they deserved, the low level employees, or the people in charge? Rice’s answer appears to be “no one.”\* Indeed. Those structural deficiencies didn’t prevent Clarke, under Clinton, from successfully foiling the planned “millenium” attacks. It would be one thing if Bush & Co. had employed the same strategy in the summer and fall of 2001, and still failed to stop 9/11. It’s quite another to more or less ignore the warning signals and then retroactively blame “structural deficiencies.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/44 "2004-04-08T18:23:29Z")
[hijack] By the way, they’re reporting on Swedish news that Karbala has also fallen to Shiite forces. I haven’t seen it announced on any of the blogs yet. Don’t know if its already common knowledge stateside, didn’t know where to post it, so I thought I’d just drop it in here. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/45 "2004-04-08T18:37:51Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > Now, that’s really unfair. You do realize the 9/11 families were a major impetus for the whole commission happening at all, right? > > Gail Sheehy has been writing [articles](http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage2.asp) about these women for months now in the pages of the NY Observer. Go to their homepage and search for her. The articles are fascinating. And they were far from cutting Condi a break–they walked out to protest her not coming. > > That’s what’s going on in the back of that hearing room, folks. There comes a time when the sniping and clutching at pearls should stop. I do realize that the 9/11 families were a major impetus for the whole commission. I apologize, I do not mean to take a broad-swipe at the families of the 9/11 victims and my comments could clearly be taken that way. Let me try to explain. I am a private citizen. I do not know, personally, anyone who died on 9/11. I want _the truth_ about what happened that day and in the months/years leading up to that day. I do not seek to “place blame” to one administration or another. To be honest, I do not think you can place blame in this - it was a horrible, mostly un-preventable, act by extremists and to believe you can anticipate such actions is just naive. Regardless, I emphasize again, I want The Truth. I cannot fathom, if I was one of the families of the victims of 9/11, why they are not seeing the same thing I see - that this has degenerated into blatant politicing by a supposedly impartial non-partisan commission. I am not blaming Democrats or Republicans alone, I am blaming them all - each and every damn one of them. They (the families) wanted this commission, we (the general public) all deserved this commission and we all deserve **The Truth**. Why, on the blood of your family members, do they applaud partisan snipping? Why do they not stand up and demand more? I do not have the power of a voice in the court-room as they do. If I did, I’d damn sure not applaud partisan snipping and political power plays. I’d boo them each time a member of the commission tried it and I’d boo each “witness” who did the same. I’d applaud those who spoke up for The Truth in a non-partisan way. I just cannot explain it or understand it but I am certainly open-minded enough to listen to a reasonable explanation. MeanJoe ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/46 "2004-04-08T18:48:58Z")
Let me suggest, and trust that everybody understands, that the testimony of the celebrity witnesses like Dr. Rice, and Mr. Clarke, the present and former Secretaries of State and Defense, the CID Director and even the President and Vice-President (present and former) is sort of the A-1 sauce—the real meat is going to be found in the staff reports that will give us details that will either confirm or impeach the glittering and self serving rationalizations of the celebrity witnesses. These people are all smart enough to justify every thing they did or failed to do and to make a superficially persuasive case for their own wisdom, strength and energy. Before we can come to any firm conclusion about what went wrong we have to see the staff reports, assuming they are released. Otherwise we have a bunch of people with an ax to grind and a ass to cover proclaiming that they were right in every particular and every one else was wrong. I keep wondering however, if the use of hijacked airplanes to crash into building was anticipated (apparently it was) why didn’t a simple directive go out to lock the cockpit doors? If word had gone out to aircrews only that there was a fair chance that hijackers might want to drive airliners into the ground, rather than get a free trip to Cuba or Tripoli, would a half dozen guys with box cutters have been able to take over a flight? You don’t need to know the specifics of a plot to take that sort of simple precausion. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/47 "2004-04-08T19:36:53Z")
> [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > **Squink** :Indeed. > > Those structural deficiencies didn’t prevent Clarke, under Clinton, from successfully foiling the planned “millenium” attacks. Are you actually trying to claim that Clarke, under Clinton, had a hand in the fire which exposed that threat? [http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/07/26/khalid.confession/](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/07/26/khalid.confession/) > [@](#): > > The two were set to carry out a plot to bomb 11 U.S.-bound airliners over the Pacific in a 48 hour span – attacks that the FBI estimates would have killed 4,000 people. > > Those attacks were prevented when an accidental fire in their safe house apartment led to their cell being broken up. > > Authorities searching Yousef’s laptop computer found detailed plans to blow up the airliners – including flight numbers and schedules, and bombmaking formulas. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/48 "2004-04-08T20:14:03Z")
Now that Rice has testified publicly, shouldn’t the Republicans get to take their public shots at Clinton and Gore? ---
**Author:** ![HumptysHamhole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f0a364/32.png) [@HumptysHamhole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumptysHamhole)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/49 "2004-04-08T20:38:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve learned lots from the testimony that I didn’t know before, especially from Clarke’s statements and the debate they’ve created. For example, I learned the administration didn’t increase spending on counter-terrorism prior to 9/11, despite it’s claims to the contrary. Today, I learned the Bush’s August 6 briefing was entitled, “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US.” (No wonder the administration wants to keep its contents secret!) You would have learned this from Clarke’s book if he hadn’t testified. Everything he said in his public testimony he had also said in his book with greater detail. Give me an example of something you learned from the hearings that wasn’t already published in a book or article or TV news segment. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/50 "2004-04-08T21:40:02Z")
The Bush Administration did increase spending on counter-terrorism. The budget submission in mid-2001 included nearly $600M for anti-terrorism programs across several agencies (mostly within the DOD). They cut spending on the failed law enforcement strategy and shifted to a military one. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/51 "2004-04-08T21:49:23Z")
> [@HumptysHamhole](#): > > You would have learned this from Clarke’s book if he hadn’t testified. Too bad Clarke didn’t publish his book under oath. We could have saved $40 million by asking Clinto to publish the Lewinski Memoirs instead of putting him on the stand. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/52 "2004-04-08T21:51:58Z")
**flickster** : No, I’m talking about the plans to bomb LAX and other sites (in the US) that was foiled in 1999. I admit that I don’t know much about it, though, other than Clarke’s testimony before the commission. There he claims, under oath, that his aggressive policy of “shaking the tree” was responsible, at least to a large extent, for successfully undermining the planned attacks. **Humpty** : > [@](#): > > _You would have learned this from Clarke’s book if he hadn’t testified. Everything he said in his public testimony he had also said in his book with greater detail. Give me an example of something you learned from the hearings that wasn’t already published in a book or article or TV news segment._ Well, much of what I learned from the hearings I learned news reports about the hearings. I agree with you (I think) that much, maybe all, of the information is available in other forms. I haven’t read Clarke’s book, however, and doubt if I’ll ever have time for it. _You_ have known a great deal about these issues prior to the commission; _I_ didn’t. For that reason alone, the commission must surely be a good thing. In addition, I think they’ve shown what the Bush administration [_really goes for_](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59534-2004Apr7.html). He and his backers have done virtually everything in their power to block the work of the commission. He’s “brave” enough to send American boys to fight and die for him, but doesn’t dare to face the commission alone. Stuff like that. For me, it speaks volumes. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/53 "2004-04-08T22:05:46Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Are you actually trying to claim that Clarke, under Clinton, had a hand in the fire which exposed that threat? > [http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/07/26/khalid.confession/](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/07/26/khalid.confession/) [This](http://www.liberalconspiracy.com/A5.htm) was the “Millennium Plot”: > [@](#): > > In early December 1999, Jordanian intelligence intercepted an overseas phone call between top al-Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah and a Jordanian terrorist, “The grooms are ready for the big wedding,” Zubaydah said. **There was no mention of exact time, place or method of attack, the coded intercept only suggested that an attack was imminent.** > > **On December 8, 1999, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Attorney General Janet Reno, National Security adviser Samuel Berger, FBI director Louis Freeh, CIA director George Tenet, Richard Clarke of the National Security Council and Michael Sheehan, chief of counterterrorism for the State Department, met at the White House to discuss the threat.** They agreed to convince friendly governments to conduct sweeps of suspected terrorists in an attempt to gain more information and disrupt their activities enough to halt the attacks. Next, Sheehan would contact the Taliban and demand that they turn over bin Laden, warning that their government would be held fully responsible for any attack by al-Qaeda. Meanwhile, the FBI and Jordanian intelligence interrogated terrorist suspects in custody in Jordan. Some of the suspects revealed that al-Qaeda had been planning to detonate a powerful truck bomb in front of the Radisson hotel in Amman, Jordan, around New Year’s Eve. There were also plans to mow down American tourists with machine guns at various popular tourist destinations throughout the country. Arrests were made and the planned attacks never happened. > > The State Department put out a warning to Americans traveling abroad and put U.S. embassies on alert. However, no warning was given domestically, as the intelligence community believed that the threat was focused on targets overseas. This changed on December 14, 1999, when alert customs inspectors caught Algerian Ahmed Ressam attempting to cross the Canadian border into Washington state with bomb components. > > **Within a matter of hours, officials were taking action** , worried that there were more terrorists trying to cross the border or who had already successfully entered the U.S. FBI agents across the country conducted interviews, wiretaps, searches and surveillance of hundreds of people, including anyone who had had ties to Ahmed Ressam. Because one of Ressam’s arrested accomplices had admitted that they were supposed to meet up in Seattle, New Year’s festivities around the Space Needle were cancelled. At the same time, officials alerted the American public to be on the look out for unattended packages in public areas or for suspicious activities. Airport security was also tightened and federal facilities received extra protection. In the end, the remnants of Ressam’s cell were swept up and the so-called Millennium plot was prevented.\* My bolding. More: [http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/05/17/clinton.terrorism/](http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/05/17/clinton.terrorism/) [http://www.payk.net/mailingLists/iran-news/html/current/msg00944.html](http://www.payk.net/mailingLists/iran-news/html/current/msg00944.html) ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/54 "2004-04-08T23:06:52Z")
Oops, I was confused. I had seen ties between the Philippines event and the Millennium Plot mentioned in other places. Must be some other ppl confused as well. There is a connection, but not like I thought. Turns out that Ressam was trained by the guy in the Philippines. So in my best Gilda Radner voice, “Never mind.” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/55 "2004-04-09T00:58:53Z")
> [@Michael Ellis](#): > > As for the “Bin Laden determined to attack inside U.S.” memo or whatever, all we’ve heard is the title. And said title, from the point of view of preventing a specific attack, is rather vague. So is the notion of “preparing for a hijacking” (paraphrased.) > > Where inside the US? What kind of attack? When? Who? What types of targets? What sort of hijacking? What flights? Out of which airport? With what purpose? > > We know the answers now, but I’d like to read the damn memo first before I decide anything. Umm…err… How about issuing a new policy along the lines of “From now on, lock the fucking cockpit door. That is all.” Complicated, I know. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/56 "2004-04-09T01:58:10Z")
I thought at least some of the clapping was appropriate… in a few instances, Rice was clearly trying to run out the clock instead of answering the question, and the commissioners who insisted on staying on subject (starting with Mr. Ben-Veniste) deserved a hand. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/57 "2004-04-09T02:21:27Z")
> [@Attrayant](#): > > Now she’s just being difficult, trying to run out the clock and talking over the commission’s speakers. Bob Kerry actually accused her of trying to filibuster him. Actually, Kerrey comes off as a big old baby: > [@](#): > > Well, no, no, actually, we have many points of disagreement, Dr. Clarke, but we’ll have a chance to do in closed session. Please don’t filibuster me. It’s not fair. It is not fair. I have been polite. I have been courteous. It is not fair to me. Who’s this Dr. Clarke, anyway? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/58 "2004-04-09T03:04:30Z")
I loved it when she finally said, “Commissioner Kerrey, I don’t think I look much like Mr. Clarke!” after he called her that about five times. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/59 "2004-04-09T03:19:47Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Who’s this Dr. Clarke, anyway? :rolleyes: Right! And it makes you wonder what else the democrats are hiding. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952/60 "2004-04-09T03:31:40Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Umm…err… > > How about issuing a new policy along the lines of “From now on, lock the fucking cockpit door. That is all.” > > Complicated, I know. > > -Joe At that time cockpit doors & locks were not designed to keep out combatants, so it wouldn’t have made much difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-live-rice-defending-the-bush-admin/238952.md?page=4)