# Watch out war protesters..the feds are coming.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 9, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202 "2004-02-09T00:42:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/21 "2004-02-09T06:46:02Z")
> [@Finagle](#):
>
> Defend? No. But I have some questions.
>
> If you were going to crush dissent, why would you do it at Drake College in Des Moines, Iowa?
Because no one has ever heard of Drake College in Des Moines, Iowa? I’m thinking that were this happening at Harvard or Yale or Columbia the liberal media would be all over it.
Of course, if we _had_ a liberal media they’d be all over this story already. 😉
---
### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/22 "2004-02-09T07:17:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> …I wasn’t really trying to make any reference to **Reeder** , either. I really was just inviting a response from the hardcore Bush apologists who can never seem to admit that he ever does anything the least bit disturbing.
GW is not a Federal judge, the last time I checked. Nor is he a prosecutor. Nor is his name mentioned in the article. At all. You are, once again, indulging in your GWB fetish. It is getting unhealthy, don’t you think? Not _every_ waking thought need be of the President, you know. Come on, admit it, come 2008, you morons are going to miss him. Who else will you simple idiots be able to fixate on, day in and day out?
In regards to this somewhat amusing story, _Sic Semper Hippies_.
---
### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/23 "2004-02-09T07:31:07Z")
Well, there you have it. Even the dumbest Bushie on the board will only go as far as a “Bush didn’t do” defense.
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/24 "2004-02-09T07:39:46Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#):
>
> Well, there you have it. Even the dumbest Bushie on the board will only go as far as a “Bush didn’t do” defense.
Step one: Pretend that you are not a fucking moron. Just for moment!
Step two: Reread your post. Three or four times, if need be.
Result _Now_ you see just how stupid your idiotic blurb sounds!
---
### Author:  [@Grumple\_Grommit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumple_Grommit)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/25 "2004-02-09T07:50:50Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> Step one: Pretend that you are not a fucking moron. Just for moment!
>
> Step two: Reread your post. Three or four times, if need be.
>
> Result _Now_ you see just how stupid your idiotic blurb sounds!
Brutus-
Step one: Take your fist, and extend your thumb upwards as if to give a hearty thumbs up.
Step two: Insert it firmly in your ass.
Step three: Spin around until you fall down and realize what a fuckwit you are.
---
### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/26 "2004-02-09T07:56:07Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> Result Now you see just how stupid your idiotic blurb sounds!
You are quite right, **Brutus**. I failed to consider the possibility that there might be Bushies dumber than you on the board. If there are any, I’d like to hear from them, too.
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### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/27 "2004-02-09T08:03:57Z")
On a more serious note, the following may be useful in understanding what’s going on:
> [@](#):
>
> [ACLU Slams Classified FBI Memorandum Directing Law Enforcement to Engage in Protest Suppression Tactics
> November 23, 2003](http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=14450&c=206&MX=1055&H=1)
>
> WASHINGTON - The American Civil Liberties Union today denounced a classified FBI intelligence memorandum, obtained by the New York Times, which gives police detailed instructions on how to target and monitor lawful political demonstrations under the rubric of fighting terrorism.
>
> “Attorney General Ashcroft has dismissed critics of the Justice Department’s tactics as ‘hysterical’ and has even said that such criticism aids the terrorists,” said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU Executive Director. “But this bulletin confirms that the federal government is targeting innocent Americans engaged in nothing more than lawful protest and dissent. The American people deserve an explanation for what is clearly a return to the days of J. Edgar Hoover’s spying tactics.”
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### Author:  [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/28 "2004-02-09T12:18:33Z")
> [@Reeder](#):
>
> [Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=716&e=7&u=/ap/20040207/ap_on_re_us/activist_investigation)
>
> Just another form of intimidation. Par for the course for the Bush admin. What better way to quash dissent?
I emailed the link along with a short comment to
[am@cnn.com](mailto:am@cnn.com)
I hope you all do something similar. :mad:
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/29 "2004-02-09T13:33:07Z")
If the grand jury’s subpoena power is indeed being used to stifle legitimate political protest, then that’s absolutely outrageous.
The fact that political protestors are being targeted certainly gives strength to that inference.
However, there may be something we don’t know. If, for example, the feds had interviewed an Afghani Al-Queda member last year, and if that person had revealed that Al-Queda was using “peace organizations in Des Moines” as a cover to raise and launder money, then I’d feel the investigation was justified.
I think the ACLU comment was right on the money: it’s best not to speculate, but rather wait and see what course of inquiry the grand jury takes. If they start asking the leaders of these groups if they ever sent money overseas to terrorist groups, I’d say that’s a legitimate inquiry into a federal crime, and the absolute correct use of a federal grand jury. If they merely ask, “What are the names of everyone in your group that supposedly favors ‘peace’, and why do you hate the United States?” then I would agree that this was an improper and illegal use of the grand jury process.
- Rick
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### Author:  [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/30 "2004-02-09T14:10:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> If the grand jury’s subpoena power is indeed being used to stifle legitimate political protest, then that’s absolutely outrageous.
>
> The fact that political protestors are being targeted certainly gives strength to that inference.
>
> However, there may be something we don’t know. If, for example, the feds had interviewed an Afghani Al-Queda member last year, and if that person had revealed that Al-Queda was using “peace organizations in Des Moines” as a cover to raise and launder money, then I’d feel the investigation was justified.
>
> I think the ACLU comment was right on the money: it’s best not to speculate, but rather wait and see what course of inquiry the grand jury takes. If they start asking the leaders of these groups if they ever sent money overseas to terrorist groups, I’d say that’s a legitimate inquiry into a federal crime, and the absolute correct use of a federal grand jury. If they merely ask, “What are the names of everyone in your group that supposedly favors ‘peace’, and why do you hate the United States?” then I would agree that this was an improper and illegal use of the grand jury process.
>
> - Rick
Bricker: Given A) that we will never see the results of the testimony, and thusly will never know if this is just intimidation, and B) The last time we didn’t speculate and waited and saw, we invaded someone on false premises, how much more credit are you willing to give the administration? That’s not rhetorical: what kind of actions that may still be justifiable will you concede are probably naked power politics?
---
### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/31 "2004-02-09T14:32:20Z")
> [@Antiochus](#):
>
> I emailed the link along with a short comment to
>
> [am@cnn.com](mailto:am@cnn.com)
>
> I hope you all do something similar. :mad:
Who or what is “am”? What is his/her/its function at CNN?
---
### Author:  [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/32 "2004-02-09T15:41:59Z")
> [@Revtim](#):
>
> Who or what is “am”? What is his/her/its function at CNN?
_ante meridiem_
🙂
More specifically, it is the CNN morning show - [American Morning with Soledad O’Brien and Bill Hemmer](http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/american.morning/).
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### Author:  [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/33 "2004-02-09T16:01:43Z")
Simply astounding. So…what, he’s gonna play McCarthy for a while now?
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### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/34 "2004-02-09T16:22:08Z")
> [@rsa](#):
>
> _ante meridiem_
>
> 🙂
>
> More specifically, it is the CNN morning show - [American Morning with Soledad O’Brien and Bill Hemmer](http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/american.morning/).
Is this a highly-rated show?
I wonder if it might be useful if we complied a list of email addresses of the highest-rated news shows and urged each other to email them about this news story.
Hell, not just the highest-rated, but maybe all of them.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/35 "2004-02-09T16:32:58Z")
> [@robertliguori](#):
>
> Bricker: Given A) that we will never see the results of the testimony, and thusly will never know if this is just intimidation, and B) The last time we didn’t speculate and waited and saw, we invaded someone on false premises, how much more credit are you willing to give the administration? That’s not rhetorical: what kind of actions that may still be justifiable will you concede are probably naked power politics?
An excellent and very fair question.
Answer: not too much, actually. My “what-if” scenario is a collection of ad-hoc assumptions. Absent even a sliver of actual evidence in support of them, I’d say my reaction is pretty far over against this tactic right now.
However, the ACLU’s lawyers, representing at least one of the subpoened witnesses, will be in much better shape to assess the situation after the grand jury appearance and move to quash the subpoena if the facts warrant it.
And regardless, that’s the right approach. The remedy to an overreaching grand jury investigation for ANY reason is a motion to quash. So that’s what I’d be recommending in any event.
- Rick
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### Author:  [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)
#### Post date: [February 9, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/36 "2004-02-09T18:34:24Z")
> [@Revtim](#):
>
> Is this a highly-rated show?
>
> I wonder if it might be useful if we complied a list of email addresses of the highest-rated news shows and urged each other to email them about this news story.
>
> Hell, not just the highest-rated, but maybe all of them.
I _think_ that the highest rated news shows are NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, CNN, and MSNBC.
Might want to hold off on the emails for a day or so. The Washington Post picked up the story yesterday and most of the media types will see the story there. Also, the students are to testify tomorrow, so more information may be coming soon.
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### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/37 "2004-02-10T00:51:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> If they start asking the leaders of these groups if they ever sent money overseas to terrorist groups, I’d say that’s a legitimate inquiry into a federal crime, and the absolute correct use of a federal grand jury.
Have you ever given money to a terrorist organization? Don’t bother saying No. Just turn over all of your records for the last twenty years, including bank statements, tax returns, travel documents, telephone logs, and anything else we’re not remembering but that we’ll accuse you of holding back if you don’t include them. And you don’t get to talk to an attorney, either, or anybody else, for that matter. If you tell anybody _at all_ about our investigation, the consequences will be dire. No, no, no, just shut up and comply.
Verily, this is the Land of the Free. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/38 "2004-02-10T00:52:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> The remedy to an overreaching grand jury investigation for ANY reason is a motion to quash. So that’s what I’d be recommending in any event.
Except that it is too reactive to be effective against spurious charges brought for purposes of intimidation or quelling of dissent. By the time a motion to quash can even be made there will have been real damages to the people against whom the state levvied these charges. Some jail time at the very least, being branded a “suspected terrorist” or “under investigation by anti-terrorism agencies”. The list goes on and on. The real effects of this “overreaching grand jury investigation” can’t be remedied by a simple quashing. There are some crimes in which we shouldn’t even level accusations without a damn good reason(such as charges of child pornography or pedophilia, and I’d add terrorism/terror related activities). Those who make these accusations without reasonable grounds should face penalities. Being able to launch the accusation in and of itself is enough to damage freedom of speech. If such accusations are being made for political reasons then a motion to quash simply is not going to either stop future abuses or remedy the damages caused by the spurious accusations.
Enjoy,
Steven
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### Author:  [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/39 "2004-02-10T01:54:48Z")
> [@drm](#):
>
> If I were a democrat in the united states, I’d be tickled pink that this happened. I can’t possibly imagine voters taking much more of this.
I would hope so, but I just can’t help seeing this as a variant of the frog in the pan: Put two frogs in, and as you turn up the heat, tell each frog that you’re doing it to keep it safe from the other frog. Not only will they not struggle to get out, they’ll actually ask you to keep turning up the heat.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watch-out-war-protesters-the-feds-are-coming/228202/40 "2004-02-10T02:06:05Z")
> [@Mtgman](#):
>
> Except that it is too reactive to be effective against spurious charges brought for purposes of intimidation or quelling of dissent. By the time a motion to quash can even be made there will have been real damages to the people against whom the state levvied these charges. Some jail time at the very least, being branded a “suspected terrorist” or “under investigation by anti-terrorism agencies”. The list goes on and on. The real effects of this “overreaching grand jury investigation” can’t be remedied by a simple quashing.
This is absolutely wrong. First of all, I have no idea how you figure that jail time would be involved. And testifying before a grand jury does not mean that you are the target of an investigation; indeed, it’s as likely that you’re a witness as a target. Finally, a motion to quash may be made at any time, to include before the testimony is required.
If the grand jury returns an indictment against anyone, only then would jail time be a possibility… but for the grand jury to return an indictment, they would have to have found probable cause that a crime was committed.
- Rick
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