# Watching LOTR again, couple questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616 "2012-12-10T16:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/201 "2012-12-17T18:51:07Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > That’s the thing that bugs me about parts of the story… Isildur HAD the ring, and did nothing with it. He just wore it around his neck like a charm he got from his girlfriend. He was a great hero in his own right and wasn’t about to do evil just because; the Ring would have needed a long time to work on him. It quite probably called the orcs to attack, and certainly chose to slip off his finger and to let him be killed. When the time was right - when Sauron began to stir once again, it called to another creature, but instead of getting grabbed by a human or orc (both more easily controlled), a Hobbit took it. Habbits have their flaws, but they are earthy creatures and perhaps more resilient to its effects. The human kings who held lesser rings became wraiths - insubstantial. But Gollum, though twisted by a greater evil, did not lose his flesh. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > About the Nazgul, why did they stop pursuing the hobbits once they jumped on that boat near Bree? You’d think Sauron would imbue them with immortality and the ability to swim. They definitely had weaknesses. Among these was that they didn’t _float_. Also, water seems to have been unpleasant to them somehow. > [@](#): > > Also, Aragon took on a bunch of them including the Witch King at Weathertop. But later it took Merry with a special sword to make him vulnerable for Eowyn to kill him. Was he not wearing his invincible cloak +1 at that time or something? He was driven off pretty easily Well, there are three things to remember. One, that was _Aragorn_, and two, they were taken by surprise, and three, they weren’t as powerful as they became later. The Ringwraiths didn’t have a physical body, and can hang around forever as undead spirits. They need something to cloak themselves in - and borrow a bit of Sauron’s strength. Hence the Nazgul we see initially would be more than a match for almost anything human. But the Witch-King in his full power was enough to terrify entire citadels into submission, as well as slaughter great warriors by the dozen. In Tolkein’s world, you get power by skill, knowledge and lore. There’s not really a “being super-tough and having lots of hit points” power. Combat was a real risk for almost anybody facing almost anybody, although inhuman creatures like the Witch-King or Sauron (or Gandalf the White) might not be able to die from any mortal weapon. Indeed, it’s not all that clear that Eowyn did actually kill him permanently, but he would have been left disembodied until Sauron’s final defeat removed the power binding him to Middle-Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/202 "2012-12-17T20:02:42Z")
And as been pointed out before, they’d already stabbed Frodo. They didn’t need to hang about, their work was accomplished. All they had to do was wait for him to join them. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/203 "2012-12-17T20:15:57Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > About the Nazgul, why did they stop pursuing the hobbits once they jumped on that boat near Bree? You’d think Sauron would imbue them with immortality and the ability to swim. This is also a bit of a holdover from “early versions” of the Nazgul (In Tolkien’s mind, not in Middle Earth) - they started off as very mythotypical evil spirits, and couldn’t cross running water. The Professor later realized that this was completely implausible, because his world was covered in running water and the Nazgul would barely be able to leave Mordor, so it was dropped, but they still have a sort of lingering strong aversion to it - it’s why they hesitated at the Fords of Bruinen as well, even when all nine of them were together and it was just a hobbit on a horse on the other side of some shallow water. I think in the end it worked out to be “Nazgul can use bridges, and can probably coerce themselves to use fords under extreme circumstances, but cannot swim or otherwise cross deep running water.” This is, I think, attributed to there being some power of Ulmo lingering in all bodies of water. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/204 "2012-12-17T20:31:46Z")
Also, in the book, wasn’t Aragorn wielding the shortened version of The Sword That Was Broken as a “short sword,” rather than having it lie in state in Rivendell (and in the book, all the _rest_ of the sword was in Rivendell)? I seem to recall that… in which case, the thought process for the wraiths might also have included “Hey, isn’t that the sword that cut off the boss’s–YIKES! OUTTA HERE!” ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/205 "2012-12-17T20:45:03Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Also, in the book, wasn’t Aragorn wielding the shortened version of The Sword That Was Broken as a “short sword,” rather than having it lie in state in Rivendell (and in the book, all the _rest_ of the sword was in Rivendell)? I seem to recall that… in which case, the thought process for the wraiths might also have included “Hey, isn’t that the sword that cut off the boss’s–YIKES! OUTTA HERE!” correct - he was carrying it and it was reforged at Rivendell before the fellowship left. [http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Shards\_of\_Narsil](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Shards_of_Narsil) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/206 "2012-12-17T20:47:05Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Yes, and there’s a thread over [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675509) where people are talking about the movie. Why do you ask? I’ve read **twicks** ’s instructions, but you ask the question as if you don’t understand it, so I don’t think I’m bickering by clarifying. The comment, as I understand it, meant that, if you’ve read the book, then telling you something from the movie that is also in the book didn’t spoil anything for you. And, yes, I know the obvious response–just because you’ve read the book doesn’t mean that everyone who has read this thread has. And, even if they have, they might not want to know how far the movie goes. Just because you know it’s in the book doesn’t mean you know it’s in this movie. And, apparently, **Ethilrist** wants to go into the movie completely blind. Hopefully I’ve clarified it so that both sides understand each other, and have done so without bickering. Because the bickering seemed to be caused by neither side quite understanding the other. And I apologize if you knew that and my interpretation of what happened is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/207 "2012-12-17T21:15:33Z")
> [@simster](#): > > correct - he was carrying it and it was reforged at Rivendell before the fellowship left. > > [http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Shards\_of\_Narsil](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Shards_of_Narsil) He _had_ it, but there was no indication in the book that he _used_ it before it was reforged. All he used against the Nazgul at Weathertop (in the book) was a torch. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/208 "2012-12-17T21:28:02Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > This is also a bit of a holdover from “early versions” of the Nazgul (In Tolkien’s mind, not in Middle Earth) - they started off as very mythotypical evil spirits, and couldn’t cross running water. The Professor later realized that this was completely implausible, because his world was covered in running water and the Nazgul would barely be able to leave Mordor, so it was dropped, but they still have a sort of lingering strong aversion to it - it’s why they hesitated at the Fords of Bruinen as well, even when all nine of them were together and it was just a hobbit on a horse on the other side of some shallow water. I think in the end it worked out to be “Nazgul can use bridges, and can probably coerce themselves to use fords under extreme circumstances, but cannot swim or otherwise cross deep running water.” This is, I think, attributed to there being some power of Ulmo lingering in all bodies of water. The phrase “The Nazgul have crossed the river! [Anduin]” is used, as if it holds some great shocking import. Not just that they’re out and about, but that they mustered up the strength to cross the river. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/209 "2012-12-18T02:47:19Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > He _had_ it, but there was no indication in the book that he _used_ it before it was reforged. All he used against the Nazgul at Weathertop (in the book) was a torch. Please. TWO torches. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/210 "2012-12-18T02:58:58Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > The phrase “The Nazgul have crossed the river! [Anduin]” is used, as if it holds some great shocking import. Not just that they’re out and about, but that they mustered up the strength to cross the river. Peer pressure. 😉 And smiling bandit, that’s very interesting. So you figure that if Sauron had wanted to take the time, he could have re-embodied the Witch King and sent him back out? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/211 "2012-12-18T05:06:49Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > He _had_ it, but there was no indication in the book that he _used_ it before it was reforged. All he used against the Nazgul at Weathertop (in the book) was a torch. Hm… perhaps I’m remembering Bakshi’s version? I know, in that, he draws it in The Prancing Pony and the halflings are all “dude… wtf with the sword?” ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/212 "2012-12-18T05:11:00Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Hm… perhaps I’m remembering Bakshi’s version? I know, in that, he draws it in The Prancing Pony and the halflings are all “dude… wtf with the sword?” He does draw it in the book, though after things have calmed down a bit. And the blade is, apparently, “broken off a foot below the hilt”. So it’s not exactly in fighting form. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/213 "2012-12-18T13:23:56Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Hm… perhaps I’m remembering Bakshi’s version? I know, in that, he draws it in The Prancing Pony and the halflings are all “dude… wtf with the sword?” Yeah, that’s in the book, after they get the letter from Butterbur that mentions Aragorn by name and has the poem about him with the line “Renewed shall be the blade that was broken”. Aragorn shows it to them at that point. But he doesn’t draw it again until after Rivendell. That’s one of the few changes that Jackson made that I think actually improved on Tolkien. If this thing’s supposed to be a priceless artifact, why is the heir, who could probably make good use of an actual sword, carrying it with him wherever he goes? Especially given the “accidental” death rate of his ancestors? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/214 "2012-12-18T14:30:41Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Yeah, that’s in the book, after they get the letter from Butterbur that mentions Aragorn by name and has the poem about him with the line “Renewed shall be the blade that was broken”. Aragorn shows it to them at that point. But he doesn’t draw it again until after Rivendell. > > That’s one of the few changes that Jackson made that I think actually improved on Tolkien. If this thing’s supposed to be a priceless artifact, why is the heir, who could probably make good use of an actual sword, carrying it with him wherever he goes? Especially given the “accidental” death rate of his ancestors? Yup, unfortunately Jackson’s improvement entailed Elrond snootily refusing to get the blade reforged until Sauron, for no very good reason, visited a curse upon Arwen, at which point it’s personal and the blade gets fixed, because after all, why would you reforge a sword just because your prospective son-in-law has just a few months left to try to stop the irrevocable victory of the tyrant of the earth? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/215 "2012-12-18T14:36:58Z")
Yeah, that sucked. Here’s the best [explanation](http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148) for it that I’ve found. “Sweet Smoking Conan!” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/216 "2012-12-18T14:57:31Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Yeah, that sucked. Here’s the best [explanation](http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148) for it that I’ve found. “Sweet Smoking Conan!” [Possibly relevant Wiki link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conantokins). ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/217 "2012-12-18T16:00:16Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yup, unfortunately Jackson’s improvement entailed Elrond snootily refusing to get the blade reforged until Sauron, for no very good reason, visited a curse upon Arwen, at which point it’s personal and the blade gets fixed, because after all, why would you reforge a sword just because your prospective son-in-law has just a few months left to try to stop the irrevocable victory of the tyrant of the earth? Uh, actually, in the Extended Cut, at any rate, there’s a scene in Fellowship in Rivendell where Elrond corners Aragorn near his mother’s grave and says something like “The skill of the elves can reforge the Sword of Kings, but only you have the power to wield it.” (Translation: Hey! Would you like us to reforge your Awesome Ancestral Sword so you can use it on this mission/quest/thing?) and Aragorn comes back with “I do not want that power. I have never wanted it.” (Translation: Movie Aragorn is a wuss and is denying his heritage.) So while Jackson DID still kinda f-up this section, it’s not Grumpy Elrond’s fault, it’s Wimpy Aragorn’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/218 "2012-12-18T16:11:36Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Uh, actually, in the Extended Cut, at any rate, there’s a scene in Fellowship in Rivendell where Elrond corners Aragorn near his mother’s grave and says something like “The skill of the elves can reforge the Sword of Kings, but only you have the power to wield it.” (Translation: Hey! Would you like us to reforge your Awesome Ancestral Sword so you can use it on this mission/quest/thing?) and Aragorn comes back with “I do not want that power. I have never wanted it.” (Translation: Movie Aragorn is a wuss and is denying his heritage.) > > So while Jackson DID still kinda f-up this section, it’s not Grumpy Elrond’s fault, it’s Wimpy Aragorn’s fault. Uh, in the Extended Cut, possibly, but not in the version I saw in theatres. It’s still Jackson’s fuck-up, though. Book-Aragorn was all for it as soon as the time was right - which he already knew was soon when he met the hobbits in Bree, and which even Bilbo knew when he penned “All that is gold does not glitter”. All you’re telling me is that Jackson had a go at traducing yet another of Tolkien’s characters, and regrettably, Aragorn is going to have to go and join the queue. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/219 "2012-12-19T18:34:57Z")
Is the power of Narsil, and later Anduril, supposed to be subtle like Gandalf’s magic, like the magic inherent in hobbits that allows them to avoid big clumsy folks like us? Because Sting glowed, and apparently Merry’s Nazgul-killer had some powers too, but Anduril looked and acted like a regular sword for most of the movie. The only time it did anything magical was when he blocked the strike of the king of the dead, but I think that wasn’t in the book either. Did it have any special powers at all? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/220 "2012-12-19T18:44:16Z")
It certainly did. > [@JRRT](#): > > But even as the orc flung down the truncheon {of his broken spear} and swept out his scimitar, Anduril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head. (from “The Bridge of Khazan-Dum”) And again at Helm’s Deep, “Anduril rose and fell, gleaming with white fire. A shout went up from wall and tower: ‘Anduril! Anduril goes to war! The Blade that was Broken shines again!’ Dismayed the rammers let fall the trees and turned to fight; but the wall of their shields was broken as by a lightning-stroke, and they were swept away…”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616.md?page=12)