# Watching LOTR again, couple questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616 "2012-12-10T16:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/41 "2012-12-10T22:56:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Considering that the books basically laid the foundation for D&D, maybe a fireball or two would have been nice. I do remember, and I think my memory’s good about this one, that in the book, during the escape from the Balrog out of Balin’s Tomb, Gandalf froze some walls with ice to slow him down. Wish we could have seen that As mentione,d didn’t happen. He did put a locking charm on the tomb door, but that was simply incapable of holding back the power fo the Balrog. The charm worked - but the Balrog’s magic was too much and the door itself simply exploded from the strain. > [@](#): > > About Gandalf’s powers, would it be fair to say then that he could probably do some more impressive displays of power, but it would have been merely impressive to the eye and not done as much damage? All flash and no substance, so to speak? No. He could do quite impressive feats of magic when necessary, but only the bare minimum and nothing even remotely like a DnD wizard. DnD spellcasters are more like Artillery Pieces on legs than anything human\*. Others mentioned the specifics, but note that he was able to shatter a stone bridge strong enough to support the Balrog, light the camp on fire, counter the Nazgul’s city-wide aura of despair, remove most of Saruman’s power with a word, and when he came back may have been immune to any mortal weapon, and probably few immortal ones as well. It’s not flashy - but that doesn’t mean it’s weak. \*This is not a joke. The Wizard in DnD was based around rules for WW2 artillery. They jsut gave it a fantasy gloss and later, other kinds of spells. > [@](#): > > What privileges are you talking about? Their minds? From what I gathered, which admittedly isn’t much, from reading a lot about the Simarillion from other sources, many of the Maiar like the Balrogs went with Morgoth willingly. Why wouldn’t they retain all their power? Its not like they couldn’t be willful and evil at the same time, Morgoth sure was The maiar, like Gandalf and the Balrog (and Sauron, originally) are not nearly as strong as the Valar (Pagan Gods, more or less). And they are merely creations of God Himself. The good guys are willing to, as Tolkein put it, sing the Song of Illuvatar. Because of this, there are limits to what they can do: they have to act in ways which don’t break the Song. In other words, they cannot _dominate_. They can rule only when they have lawful, accepted authority. They can’t tear up the land willy-nilly. They don’t kill simply because it’s convenient, even if the consequences of not doing so might be terrible. The bad guys can do all that, but they’ve lost so much it can’t even be conceived of. Their very place in the universe is lost to them. They can’t heal anything. They can’t lead - only terrorize. They can only be utterly ruthless overlords, or slaves. Sauron’s magic is only about control. He can build indestructable fortress - but the only thing it’s good for is domination. He can give humans immortality - at the price of turning them into miserable slaves with no will of their own. Even the Witch-King’s protection worked by hurting people trying to strike at him and destroying their weapons. Even Morgoth, who was powerful enough to reshape the entire plane of existence (it wasn’t even a planet at first!), could never do anything we would consider “constructive”. Even culture or the arts were pretty much beyond him. Sure, it fits the needs of the plot. Obsiously, it’s a story. But it also makes internal sense when you consider what Gandalf was, and what Sauron was. > [@](#): > > Does this seem to anyone else as a plot-driven, artificial weaking of the good guys? Saruman went against his orders, raised an army, joined Sauron, and tried to destroy Gondor and Rohan. Had he succeeded, would the Valars who sent him snatch him back to Valinor to face punishment? No, because the last time that happened the entire world was kicked in the gonads so hard it never entirely recovered. But note that Saruman also failed to use lots of big flashy destruction spells. He was able to call down a storm hundreds of miles away (amplifying and controlling the locally-appropriate weather) and he beguiled and persuaded those around him (one wonders if Grima did not start out as a bad man…) > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Gandalf’s supposed to help the good guys, but he simply led them on a journey and gave counsel for the most part (nevermind that it worked out in the end). Shouldn’t he have been gifted with a bit more power, maybe started off as Gandalf the White’s power level so that he could go around zapping any who got in the Fellowship’s way? I’m sure he wouldn’t have totally lost his mind if he had even some lower level spells that could protect them from a few orcs That wasn’t the point. Middle Earth wasn’t saved by mighty, obvious powers. It was saved by the fact that its people - Elves, Dwarves, Men, Ents and even little Hobbits - were willing to stand up to evil and stop it. Gandalf’s mission was to make this possible and limit the damage. It was not his mission to make the choice or carry it out. Besides, they had God Himself backing them up. It’s not like Sauron had the power advantage here. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/42 "2012-12-10T22:59:16Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Gandalf does shoot stuff from his staff from time to time. Pervy hobbit fancier that he is 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/43 "2012-12-10T22:59:16Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > I seem to recall that he was more powerful when he first arrived in Middle Earth. He lost some of his wisdom/power by spending too much time around mortals. I blame the pipeweed. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/44 "2012-12-10T23:04:16Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I don’t remember this from the books (but then I never read the Simarillion), how does that work? In the Beginning were the one god and the Valar and Maiar, and they hung around and sang. During this time, Morkoth (and his minions) tried to pervert the song and twist it to their own ends; the other gods & such sang in such a way that they were defeated and, eventually, the song died away and ended. Then the one god said “Hey, guys, look what I can do: Instagram!” and he replayed their song in surround-sound 3D, and the First Age began. So, they try to stick clear of magic because (a) yes, they really can alter reality with it and (b) what we’re really seeing is just the instant replay of something that has already happened, and if they didn’t sing any big solos in the first version, they don’t get any this time around, either. eta: Oh, and, yes. Pipeweed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/45 "2012-12-10T23:05:58Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > But you might’ve noticed that nowhere in all this did he use any really remarkable “magic”. When he goes off the rails, all he STILL HAS is his ability to command, impress, and his devious mind. He didn’t suddenly go “Screw you guys, I’m throwing fireballs” because he can’t. While Aragorn and the Hobbits are heading to Weathertop from Bree, all nine of the Nazgul take on Gandalf on Weathertop. Frodo can see the lightening that Gandalf uses to fight them off, but doesn’t know that is what is going on he is so far away. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/46 "2012-12-10T23:53:08Z")
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that whatever “magic” Gandalf performs tends to be related to fire… and he wears Narya, the Elven Ring of Fire. Coincidence? I don’t think so. (Although all we really know about Narya is that it helps him rekindle the fire of righteousness and valor in people’s hearts.) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/47 "2012-12-11T00:00:21Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that whatever “magic” Gandalf performs tends to be related to fire… and he wears Narya, the Elven Ring of Fire. Coincidence? I don’t think so. (Although all we really know about Narya is that it helps him rekindle the fire of righteousness and valor in people’s hearts.) Maybe he’s just a big, flaming pyro. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/48 "2012-12-11T00:11:12Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > … “fireballs” would’ve had the actual LotR fans fleeing the theatre. That’s not what this book is about, and all **the “magic missile” nonsense in D&D comes from somewhere else**. (Probably the “common knowledge school of what ‘wizards’ are ‘supposed’ to be able to do”) DnD magic is based on the Dying Earth stories by Jack Vance. In there the limit on your power is how many spells you could hold in your mind at once (IIRC commonly 3-4) and that you have to re-commit a spell to memory once having used it - so when you prepare for an expedition you need to correctly guess which spells are likely to be most useful, and pre-load them into your mind. IOW it’s more an ammunition and speed of reloading limit than a power limit. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/49 "2012-12-11T00:21:23Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I blame the pipeweed. His love of the halfling’s leaf has clearly slowed his mind. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/50 "2012-12-11T01:06:28Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that whatever “magic” Gandalf performs tends to be related to fire… and he wears Narya, the Elven Ring of Fire. Coincidence? I don’t think so. (Although all we really know about Narya is that it helps him rekindle the fire of righteousness and valor in people’s hearts.) No, not a coincidence. In his challenge to the balrog, Gandalf says, “I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.” Anor is the name of the sun in Sindarin. Gandalf’s specialty as far as physical effects go seems to be fire…he’s the pyrotechnician of Middle-Earth (remember that it was Gandalf the hobbits were waiting so excitedly to see at the Birthday Party, because of his fireworks). He doesn’t throw around a lot of flashy fireballs, but he’s master of the light and flame of the sun, which he mostly uses to, as you said, rekindle the fires of the souls of the Free Peoples. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/51 "2012-12-11T01:07:58Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > His love of the halfling’s leaf has clearly slowed his mind. You’re obviously thinking of Goodgulf… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/52 "2012-12-11T01:10:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Baron Greenback** : > > I’ve always thought that there are a few hints that Varda (the power of her name, and the light, via Galadriel), and maybe Manwe, (the Eagles and the final wind blowing Sauron and Saruman away) are trying to help out Frodo and Aragorn in discreet fashion. Certainly one of them returned Gandalf to Middle Earth after the Balrog unpleasantness. Actually, it certainly was _not_ one of them. Gandalf specifically says that in between being Grey and White, he “walked beyond the bounds of time and space”, or something to that effect, and the Valar have no jurisdiction out there. The only being who could have sent Gandalf back was God Himself. > [@](#): > > Quoth **smiling bandit** : > > But note that Saruman also failed to use lots of big flashy destruction spells. He was able to call down a storm hundreds of miles away (amplifying and controlling the locally-appropriate weather) And not necessarily even that. The movie shows the storm as being Saruman’s work, but in the books, nobody’s sure if it was him, or the mountain’s work, or just a purely natural storm at a really inconvenient time. And **cjepson** , the thing about Gandalf wielding the Ring of Fire has been pointed out many times, to which the response is always “Yeah, could be”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/53 "2012-12-11T01:12:04Z")
> [@](#): > > No, not a coincidence. In his challenge to the balrog, Gandalf says, “I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.” Anor is the name of the sun in Sindarin. And while we’re at it, the Secret Fire was _not_ anything particularly associated with Gandalf or his ring, but is rather Tolkien’s term for the Holy Spirit. Gandalf is warning the Balrog that he reports to the Big Guy himself. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/54 "2012-12-11T14:57:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And not necessarily even that. The movie shows the storm as being Saruman’s work, but in the books, nobody’s sure if it was him, or the mountain’s work, or just a purely natural storm at a really inconvenient time. Right. It always seemed really unlikely as a coincidence to me, though. > [@Askance](#): > > DnD magic is based on the Dying Earth stories by Jack Vance. Although in Vance, the spells were ridiculously powerful - equal to very high-level DnD effects. Likewise, if Gandalf is translated to DnD, he’s usually considered to be pretty low as a Wizard - around 5th level in most games. However, he’s considered to have pretty solid level of Fighter, like 7th-9th. [quote=] Hmm, reading the letter again, it’s seems we are both wrong. It’s not necessary to defeat Sauron to make full use of its powers. But neither is Sauron reduced to impotence merely by mastering the Ring, his physical defeat is required. So, the Balrog would likely have been unable to defeat Sauron as you say, difficult to see where it could have raised the required armies from to assault Mordor. [/quote] That’s what I would consider “mastering” the Ring, I guess. You can use it’s powers without defeating Sauron. But until/unless you do, it’s always going to betray you. Semantics, I suppose. I still say that the Balrog couldn’t take Lorien - there’s a heck of a lot more than Galadriel, and enough arrows alone to give it a very, very bad day. It was incredibly tough, but not invulnerable and Balrogs died to far weaker threats than the entirety of Lorien. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/55 "2012-12-11T15:45:20Z")
In every known case we have of balrogs being defeated in battle, it took a great heroic figure to do it, and the heroic figure also died in the process. I’m not so sure that a conventional army could have done the trick. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/56 "2012-12-11T16:16:47Z")
Re: the door in Moria, since we’re enjoying ourselves: Gandalf decides to put a shutting spell on the door, but has to “make do” since a spell of that kind normally takes time, and even then the door could be battered down. The Balrog (not then known to be one) touches the door from the other side, realizes there is magic on it, and responds with a counter spell of its own - which Gandalf say “was terrible. It nearly broke me”. The door begins to open, Gandalf responds with a short powerful spell, a word of Command. But that’s more than the poor door can deal with, and it breaks. There is a small cave-in from which Gandalf emerges and, as it turns out, so does the Balrog a little later. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/57 "2012-12-11T16:35:34Z")
Going back to Fellowship, one thing I seem to remember from the books and was ignored in the movies was that once Bilbo left after his birthday party and Gandalf handed the ring to Frodo, about 60 years passed. In the movie, it seemed Gandalf left to do some research and came back weeks later. Anyway, my question is with the scene right after the birthday party. Bilbo was going to go off to an adventure and Gandalf says he should keep the ring here and pass it to Frodo. Why? At the point, Gandalf doesn’t know it was the One Ring. At the most, he seems to think it was messing with Bilbo’s mind, but he wasn’t afraid of it. He knew about Gollum, but I don’t think he knew Gollum had it for 500 years and was a hobbit yet. So why the big push for Bilbo to leave the ring behind? Bilbo ends up in Rivendell anyway, so it doesn’t seem like Gandalf really was worried that Bilbo was going to get into trouble by letting him go off alone. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/58 "2012-12-11T17:01:24Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Anyway, my question is with the scene right after the birthday party. Bilbo was going to go off to an adventure and Gandalf says he should keep the ring here and pass it to Frodo. Why? At the point, Gandalf doesn’t know it was the One Ring. At the most, he seems to think it was messing with Bilbo’s mind, but he wasn’t afraid of it. He knew about Gollum, but I don’t think he knew Gollum had it for 500 years and was a hobbit yet. So why the big push for Bilbo to leave the ring behind? Bilbo ends up in Rivendell anyway, so it doesn’t seem like Gandalf really was worried that Bilbo was going to get into trouble by letting him go off alone. He had uncomfortable suspicions - basically, that Bilbo is acting kinda funny, and, well, he hasn’t aged since he was 50. Clearly, SOMETHING weird is going on, and the Magic Ring is the likely cause. Therefore, looking out for his friend, Gandalf figures it’s time for him to pass the ring on. The whole “my precious” bit during the surprisingly difficulty parting just served to cement his feelings that something was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/59 "2012-12-11T17:05:20Z")
I think the overt display of magic when using the ring bugged Gandalf a little. (Along the lines of “this is unusual/this isn’t natural/something’s fishy here.”, NOT “damn that hobbit!”.) Most “good” magic tends to be subtle and not flashy, and you couldn’t get more flashy than vanishing into thin air right before peoples eyes. For what it’s worth, the Middle Earth Roleplaying system tried to posit that magic upsets that natural order of things (which “good” beings are loath to do). The more you try to bend the rules in Arda with magic, the more likely you are to be seduced by the power of the dark side (power corrupts). So, maybe since Gandlaf couldn’t/wouldn’t accompany Bilbo on his old age walk-about, he felt maybe the ring would only bring Bilbo trouble, trouble that Gandalf wouldn’t be around to fix. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/60 "2012-12-11T17:06:06Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Going back to Fellowship, one thing I seem to remember from the books and was ignored in the movies was that once Bilbo left after his birthday party and Gandalf handed the ring to Frodo, about 60 years passed. Seventeen years, actually. Bilbo’s Birthday Party was on September 22nd, 3001 (which was also Frodo’s 33rd birthday). IIRC, Frodo inherited the ring at that point (though, he obviously only knew of it what Bilbo knew). Gandalf returned to Bag End on April 12th, 3018, after doing his research, and that’s when he discovered for certain (by seeing the writing on the ring after heating it) that it was the One Ring. Frodo set about to leave Hobbiton, but it took him several months to sell Bag End and make preparations; he left Hobbiton (with Sam and Pippin) on September 23rd, 3018. More info here: > **[The Encyclopedia of Arda - Frodo Baggins](https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/frodobaggins.html)** > > Heir of Bilbo Baggins, and hero of the Lord of the Rings. Renowned for bearing the One Ring to the land of Mordor, and bringing it to the... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616.md?page=4)