# Watching LOTR again, couple questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616 "2012-12-10T16:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/121 "2012-12-12T18:27:57Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > \ Ar-Pharazôn \ the Kin-strife \ the splitting or Arnor into seperate kingdoms \ Eärnur. When you’re a monarchist, the solution to misrule by bad monarchs is the restoration of just rule by good monarchs. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/122 "2012-12-12T19:16:38Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The only elf who REALLY had to wait for the situation with Sauron to be cleaned up was Galadriel, because it was only her refusal of the Ring that allowed her to be forgiven her sin of disobeying the Valar and swearing the Oath to follow Morgoth and the Silmarils. Galadriel never took the Oath of Fëanor. Only Fëanor and his sons took that oath. Fingolfin, Finarfin, and their families stood by and watched them take the oaths with horror, and followed them into exile (save for those that didn’t) out of loyalty and swayed by Fëanor’s words. Likewise, Galadriel spent her time during the kinslaying trying to stop the kinslaying. But she was proud, and indeed did not ask for pardon, and that found her derriere stuck in ME for millenia after the fall of Morgoth. Of course for most of that time, she was grooving on ruling her own realm. ETA: And in some of JRRT’s last writings, he sketched notes where Galadriel and Celeborn (then conceived to be of Alqualondë, not ME) were given official permission to go back to ME by the Valar, but had the unfortunate timing to have their planned trip get spoiled by Fëanor’s revolt. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/123 "2012-12-12T19:29:44Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > …e Easterlings or Southrons (or Haradrim, or whatever.)… [pedantry] Harad means “south”, so Haradrim and Southrons are the same thing. [/pedantry] ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/124 "2012-12-12T19:33:14Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > We did see Saruman promising the[Dunlendings](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Dunland) (who may not have been named in the film) their old lands I also don’t remember if he names the Dunlendings, but when Legolas sees the flock of birds in the film coming toward their camp on the ridge, he does mention that they are coming from Dunland. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/125 "2012-12-12T19:55:17Z")
One thing I noticed about Middle Earth (actually it occured to me while playing “Lord of the Rings Online” as a scholar) is that with each passing Age and it’s attendant war with Evil, the center of the Evil moves further East. Presumably, in the next Age the war will be even further East. Consequently, the further West you go, the further from Evil’s influence you are, and seemingly the more peacable/less warlike you become - probably why the Elves leave by sailing to the West. Presumably the races of Men allied with Sauron are closest to him and therefore more easily led/under his power, however if the pattern holds then in the next Age they will be more like Rohirrim and the like - still fierce warriors but “neutral” in the war to come. Hobbits will fade away, and the lands that border the Western ocean could even submerge like the lands of the First Age did. Again, just a theory. I have no idea what it means, it’s just something I pieced together and made part of my character’s “backstory” and patter during on-line sessions. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/126 "2012-12-12T19:58:38Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I also don’t remember if he names the Dunlendings, but when Legolas sees the flock of birds in the film coming toward their camp on the ridge, he does mention that they are coming from Dunland. “Crebain from Dunland!” Probably the least intelligible line in the movie – neither word is ever used anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/127 "2012-12-12T20:15:25Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > re not knowing what was going on in Moria - umm, travel was difficult and mail service/phones there nonexistent. It doesn’t help Moria, but the hobbits had a postal system in the Shire, and took great delight in sending and receiving letters. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/128 "2012-12-12T20:53:02Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > [pedantry] Harad means “south”, so Haradrim and Southrons are the same thing. [/pedantry] Huh. I always thought it was a specific region/country, but I guess the existance of a map location labelled “Near Harad” is no more out there than calling Turkey the “Near East”. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/129 "2012-12-12T21:00:44Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Huh. I always thought it was a specific region/country, but I guess the existance of a map location labelled “Near Harad” is no more out there than calling Turkey the “Near East”. It could be a direction that becomes a specific place; like Australia (which, if memory serves, comes from Latin for “south”). ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/130 "2012-12-13T01:59:09Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > re not knowing what was going on in Moria - umm, travel was difficult and mail service/phones there nonexistent. Well, they could have used the palantir… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/131 "2012-12-13T02:10:43Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Well, they could have used the palantir… There was no connecting palantir in Moria. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/132 "2012-12-13T02:31:13Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > There was no connecting palantir in Moria. Where did Pippin look at one? Am I getting mixed up with the video game? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/133 "2012-12-13T02:51:57Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Where did Pippin look at one? Am I getting mixed up with the video game? Pippin looked in Saruman’s palantir after Gandalf liberated it. In Rohan. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/134 "2012-12-13T03:25:13Z")
In the books, The Steward of Gondor also had a palantir (It’s part of what led to his madness) - and at some point, Aragorn also used a Palantir to basically let Sauron know that the King was returning - I do not recall at this point where Aragorn’s came from. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/135 "2012-12-13T03:36:45Z")
> [@simster](#): > > In the books, The Steward of Gondor also had a palantir (It’s part of what led to his madness) - and at some point, Aragorn also used a Palantir to basically let Sauron know that the King was returning - I do not recall at this point where Aragorn’s came from. He had the one from Saruman, from Orthanc. There were four left. Gondor’s, the one Sauron took from Minas Ithil, Orthanc, and one in the Tower Hills West of the Shire, which only looked to the utter West. So after LotR, there was only one useful one left, the one Wormtongue threw from the Tower. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/136 "2012-12-13T04:14:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He had the one from Saruman, from Orthanc. There were four left. Gondor’s, the one Sauron took from Minas Ithil, Orthanc, and one in the Tower Hills West of the Shire, which only looked to the utter West. > > So after LotR, there was only one useful one left, the one Wormtongue threw from the Tower. This. Aragorn took the Orthanc palantir from Pippin and used that. There were originally seven. The Osgiliath one was lost to the river when the city fell, the two in Arnor likewise when those kingdoms fell (Arvedui, the last king of the North Kingdom, took two of the three of that kingdom’s palantiri with him when he fled the Witch King, and they were lost when the ship that Cirdan sent to rescue him went down). As **DrDeth** notes, the other palantir in the North looked only to Valinor and very few other than the elves ever bothered to use it. Of the other three, the one that was in Minas Tirith was ruined when Denethor died in the fire he tried to cremate Faramir with, and only two flaming hands could be seen in it thereafter. The one that was in the sister city Minas Ithil was captured by the Nazgul and was the one that Sauron used to corrupt the use of the others. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/137 "2012-12-13T04:55:48Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I’ve always thought that there are a few hints that Varda (the power of her name, and the light, via Galadriel), and maybe Manwe, (the Eagles and the final wind blowing Sauron and Saruman away) are trying to help out Frodo and Aragorn in discreet fashion. Certainly one of them returned Gandalf to Middle Earth after the Balrog unpleasantness. Absolutely not. The Valinor didn’t have that power. Only Eru, God, has,that sort of power. It was Eru who resurrected Gandalf and sent him back to ME. ---
**Author:** ![montag01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@montag01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/montag01)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/138 "2012-12-13T05:05:34Z")
I’ll ask a question too, rather than start a thread. I haven’t read the books, so I don’t know how they’re handled in the source material, but regarding the ghost army that Aragorn has in The Return of the King–would Sauron have had any way to deal with it if he had had to face them? Obviously they depart after Aragorn releases them. But let’s say they decided to stick around. Is Sauron’s magic (or whatever power he has) enough to somehow disperse them? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/139 "2012-12-13T05:54:19Z")
In the books, the Army of the Dead doesn’t even need to actually do anything-- Just the sight of them charging is enough to send the Haradrim fleeing. Maybe their swords would cut, maybe the wouldn’t, and nobody felt like finding out. But fear as a weapon is quite familiar to Sauron. If he had been present, he could certainly at least have made the Haradrim even more afraid of fleeing than they were of fighting, and might well have been able to turn all that fear against the armies of Gondor. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/140 "2012-12-13T06:29:09Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > It doesn’t help Moria, but the hobbits had a postal system in the Shire, and took great delight in sending and receiving letters. Yes, but the Shire was a small region and unusually peaceful, because the Rangers had been keeping an eye on it for years. …And of course even there things could go awry. Gandalf wrote Frodo a letter on Mid-Year’s Day and he didn’t get it until the end of September, because there wasn’t a regular postman from Bree to the Shire and Barliman Butterbur kept forgetting to find someone heading that way to give it to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616.md?page=8)