# Watching LOTR again, couple questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616 "2012-12-10T16:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/161 "2012-12-14T05:12:25Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Actually, humans really get the short straw. Every race, including Hobbits, has more inherent awesome sauce. But thats the very premise in the Rings themselves - > [@](#): > > It began with the forging of the Great Rings. Three were given to the Elves, immortal, wisest, and fairest of all beings. Seven to the Dwarf lords, great miners and craftsmen of the mountain halls. **And nine, nine Rings were gifted to the race of Men, who above all else, desire power.** For within these Rings was bound the strength and will to govern each race. But they were all of them deceived, for another Ring was made. In the land of Mordor, in the fires of Mount Doom, The Dark Lord Sauron forged in secret a Master Ring, to control all others. And into this Ring, he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life. One Ring to rule them all. So it was always intended that Men would be the weakest link. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/162 "2012-12-14T10:55:35Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I think the story of Lord of the Rings would be much improved by far more examples of people being swayed into betrayal by the ring, and I mean during the actual fucking story, not examples of people we’re told were corrupted by it in the past. So Denethor, Boromir, Bilbo, Frodo, Gollum, and Saruman, just off the top of my head, aren’t enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/163 "2012-12-14T15:19:35Z")
> [@simster](#): > > But thats the very premise in the Rings themselves That was Galadriel’s bull, and she ain’t one to talk. > [@](#): > > So it was always intended that Men would be the weakest link. Men weren’t handed out goodies from a source way more important than Sauron, or Galadriel. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/164 "2012-12-14T16:08:00Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So it was always intended that Men would be the weakest link. Sauron _intended_ to give his 16 rings out to the elves. When they refused, and took off the 3 rings they made on their own, he was pissed. So he distributed the 16 among men and dwarves, hoping to salvage something, dominate someone. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/165 "2012-12-14T16:24:12Z")
> [@simster](#): > > But thats the very premise in the Rings themselves - > > It began with the forging of the Great Rings. Three were given to the Elves, immortal, wisest, and fairest of all beings. Seven to the Dwarf lords, great miners and craftsmen of the mountain halls. And nine, nine Rings were gifted to the race of Men, who above all else, desire power. For within these Rings was bound the strength and will to govern each race. But they were all of them deceived, for another Ring was made. In the land of Mordor, in the fires of Mount Doom, The Dark Lord Sauron forged in secret a Master Ring, to control all others. And into this Ring, he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life. One Ring to rule them all. > > So it was always intended that Men would be the weakest link. Let’s be clear, however, that your quote is not Tolkien, it’s Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/166 "2012-12-14T16:49:11Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > If anything, Peter Jackson made it _less_ black and white by turning Faramir into a more real human. In any case, I think his motivation (I’m pretty sure I’ve heard it mentioned in an interview but I could be mistaken) was that the viewers needed to be shown the power of the ring. We’re supposed to believe that the ring is dangerous yet we’re constantly encountering examples of people who aren’t in the least bit fazed by it. Gandalf can resist it, Aragorn can resist it, Faramir can resist it, Galadriel doesn’t take it, Gimli and Legolas don’t conspire to take it… shit. Guess it isn’t all that dangerous after all. I think the story of Lord of the Rings would be much improved by far more examples of people being swayed into betrayal by the ring, and I mean during the actual fucking story, not examples of people we’re told were corrupted by it in the past. I’ve heard this argument (it’s made by the writers themselves in the DVD commentary or extras, or something in there somewhere) but it doesn’t really hold water. The Ring is ACTIVELY F-ing up Frodo ALL THE TIME. And if it’s able to just randomly control people who see it once (or in some cases, not at all) then the whole story becomes absolutely ridiculous. And, as has been cited, a whole bunch of people are actively manipulated by the ring during the story. Is it a problem that these people are, underneath, inherently mostly good and then either regret, recant, or otherwise strive to make amends for their actions? Honestly, Faramir sucking in the movies just made the ring seem even LESS effective, because you’ve got this guy with all these issues, and he STILL doesn’t even try to take the ring. He spends a minute staring at it and then says, “I know! I’m going to bring you to my DAD!” Really? THAT is supposed to impress us with the power of the ring? It’s “persuaded” this guy to obey the law? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/167 "2012-12-14T17:03:01Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > Let’s be clear, however, that your quote is not Tolkien, it’s Jackson. But we are talking about the movie(s) - which indicates how Jackson wanted the ‘lure of the ring’ to be dealt with and explains why he made the changes to Faramir that he did. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/168 "2012-12-14T18:40:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So Denethor, Boromir, Bilbo, Frodo, Gollum, and Saruman, just off the top of my head, aren’t enough for you? Considering lesser rings were built to corrupt kings, that the greatest of the rings manages to corrupt three hobbits (one of them taking something like six plus decades) isn’t really impressive. Borimir and Saruman are significant examples, yes. You can add Denethor to that but I didn’t know if he was actually corrupted by the ring or if he’d have reacted the same way if he’d learned about a nuclear bomb hidden in Middle Earth or something. I guess the difference doesn’t really matter, actually. But no, three examples (plus however many more you can think of) aren’t enough for me compared to all the people that resist it, because here I am, not impressed with the ring’s danger. You worked on my perception of Sauron in a different thread but when it comes to the ring I think the story would definitely be improved by more people being corrupted by it. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/169 "2012-12-14T20:08:03Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Considering lesser rings were built to corrupt kings, Over a LIFETIME. Not over like, 15 minutes, FFS. > [@](#): > > But no, three examples (plus however many more you can think of) aren’t enough for me compared to all the people that resist it, because here I am, not impressed with the ring’s danger. You worked on my perception of Sauron in a different thread but when it comes to the ring I think the story would definitely be improved by more people being corrupted by it. Here’s a secret tip: If you think the Ring is “supposed” to corrupt people in 15 minutes, you are WRONG. So asserting that you need to work on portraying that better…is…also…wrong. How is it not impressive that this thing _CAN_ screw with your mind just by being near it? Does it have to turn you into a slavering slave of evil in 12 seconds flat before you become “impressed”? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/170 "2012-12-14T20:16:59Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Over a LIFETIME. Not over like, 15 minutes, FFS. > > Here’s a secret tip: If you think the Ring is “supposed” to corrupt people in 15 minutes, you are WRONG. So asserting that you need to work on portraying that better…is…also…wrong. > > How is it not impressive that this thing _CAN_ screw with your mind just by being near it? Does it have to turn you into a slavering slave of evil in 12 seconds flat before you become “impressed”? Seriously? How long would it take the ring to corrupt a strawman? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/171 "2012-12-14T20:32:19Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > Here’s a secret tip: If you think the Ring is “supposed” to corrupt people in 15 minutes, you are WRONG. So asserting that you need to work on portraying that better…is…also…wrong. > > How is it not impressive that this thing _CAN_ screw with your mind just by being near it? Does it have to turn you into a slavering slave of evil in 12 seconds flat before you become “impressed”? Seriously? QfT. The Corrupting Power of the One Ring wasn’t its primary effect. It wasn’t even particularly intended. It’s a complete side item caused by the evil nature of Sauron built into the thing. And while people might not think it impressive given how long it takes to work, note that it doesn’t just work - it completely perverts people’s attitutes and nature, just by being around them. Bilbo, who absolutely loved Frodo like a son, was driven in a momentary but almost homicidal rage at the thought of not taking it back. Gollum was made effectively immortal, and warped in a freak of nature, simply by holding it. Boromir, after swearing an oath (which he’d be willing to die in order to keep), actually tries to kill Frodo before coming to his senses. Aragorn, who has the literal Power of Nobility from birth, and has faced down evil for longer than most people live, realizes that he’s not good enough to even be near it. Gandalf, who is an immortal spirit who _knows_, for a fact, the reality of God, the Universe, and Everything, also knows that he cannot take the thing because he’ll be corrupted. Frodo, after fighting his way through Mordor, claims the Ring even knowing that it’s utterly impossible for him to keep it and that Sauron will rip it from him, rather than just destroy the thing. Gollum again, would rather be incinerated in a volcano than let the thing go. And even in his backstory, the Ring was able to amplify a minor argument between lifelong friends into _murder_. Yes. You can resist the Ring as long as you don’t actually have it. But even its close proximity is dangerous, and that’s not even what the thing was made to do, but a _minor side effect_ of even having it. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/172 "2012-12-14T20:43:06Z")
The One Ring itself wasn’t constructed with the intent to be worn by anyone else than Sauron. The lesser rings were. Gollum, even though he had it in his pocket for centuries, was still content to hide out in his cave, instead of trying to control the Orcs and Goblins of the Misty Mountains. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/173 "2012-12-14T21:16:56Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Considering lesser rings were built to corrupt kings, that the greatest of the rings manages to corrupt three hobbits (one of them taking something like six plus decades) isn’t really impressive. I presume that you’re referring to Bilbo regarding the “six plus decades”. However, it started to affect him almost immediately: He lied about how he got it, and as Gandalf explains, this was very out of character for him. Also, Gandalf noted that Bilbo was extraordinarily resistant to the Ring’s power for a couple of reasons: First, that he began his ownership of the Ring with pity; and second, that Hobbits are a surprisingly resilient people. Note also that, the more powerful an individual is, the more susceptible they are to the corrupting power of the Ring; it works on their desire to have more power to achieve their ends, whether good or bad. Bilbo was a simple hobbit who had no desire for power, so all it did to him was make him quite possessive of the Ring itself (as well as to keep him from aging outwardly). And to add to the list of those corrupted by the Ring: none other than Isildur, who, in one of the more boneheaded moves in Middle-Earth history, kept it for himself when he could have tossed it into Orodruin. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/174 "2012-12-14T21:49:31Z")
Its been a while since I’ve read the books, but did Gollum make it a habit to wear the ring? I seem to recall that he has worn it, but by the end he just kept it around without wearing it. Why wouldn’t he wear it if that were the case? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/175 "2012-12-14T22:02:45Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Its been a while since I’ve read the books, but did Gollum make it a habit to wear the ring? I seem to recall that he has worn it, but by the end he just kept it around without wearing it. Why wouldn’t he wear it if that were the case? “Gollum used to wear it at first, till it tired him; and then he kept it in a pouch next his skin, till it galled him; and now usually he hid it in a hole in the rock on his island, and was always going back to look at it. And still sometimes he put it on, when he could not bear to be parted from it any longer, or when he was very, very, hungry, and tired of fish.” ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/176 "2012-12-14T22:36:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > “Gollum used to wear it at first, till it tired him; and then he kept it in a pouch next his skin, till it galled him; and now usually he hid it in a hole in the rock on his island, and was always going back to look at it. And still sometimes he put it on, when he could not bear to be parted from it any longer, or when he was very, very, hungry, and tired of fish.” Does that last sentence imply he hunted gobbo’s? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/177 "2012-12-14T22:38:17Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Does that last sentence imply he hunted gobbo’s? It would, except it doesn’t need to, since it’s immediately followed by the next sentence: _“Then he would creep along dark passages looking for stray goblins. He might even venture into places where the torches were lit and made his eyes blink and smart; for he would be safe. Oh yes, quite safe. No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/178 "2012-12-14T22:39:09Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Does that last sentence imply he hunted gobbo’s? Yes. He would strangle and eat young goblins. Elsewhere in LOTR it implies Gollum also sometimes ate human babies on his wanderings. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/179 "2012-12-14T22:40:26Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Does that last sentence imply he hunted gobbo’s? I think it’s outright stated he hunted goblin children. I’ll have a look… ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616/180 "2012-12-14T22:41:22Z")
Thanks. It’s been awhile since I last read the book. Bilbo’s penalty for losing the riddle game was going to be quite dire, too, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-lotr-again-couple-questions/643616.md?page=10)