# Watching Star Trek for the first time **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 28, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203 "2011-03-28T01:21:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sakuma\_Drops](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sakuma\_Drops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sakuma_Drops)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/121 "2011-03-29T21:39:24Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > We’re talking about _Star Trek_ here, not the “Star Trek franchise.” Regardless of whether such intent existed as of the 21st century, it certainly didn’t exist in 1966, and it’s pointless to try and attribute it to them. Uhh, I WAS talking about _Star Trek_, The Original Series. I agree that no one in 1966 was overly concerned at the time with creating a continuing “canon” (hell, the series was almost canceled after only 2 seasons). What I was trying to say is that in the time since the Original Series, the ST universe has grow immensely more complex and paying attention to plot consistencies became a bigger concern with each additional movie/TV series. Certain segments of the fanbase seem to be particularly observant when things don’t jive with each other, but that’s true of any major created universe (the hardest of hardcore Tolkien fans are even more pedantic than most Trekkies, for example). I don’t think it’s fair to scrutinize TOS obsessively, though. I’m not trying to attribute _any_ sort of intent to the TOS writers, despite what you may think. > [@](#): > > The same reason writers use any idea, because they had to write another episode and hanging a plot point on a question that had been asked by fans since 1979 was an easy way to do it. The writers don’t care about “creating canon” or satisfying hard sci-fi needs for explanation. They’re just trying to make a show that they hope will get viewers. The Klingon retcon was done for the fans. It indeed was convenient episode fodder for the _Enterprise_ writers (they got a two-parter out of it), but IMO if it had been a bigger deal to the writers in the first place, they would have dealt with it much earlier than 2005. As far as other plot points go, I don’t think the writers have (or had) any particular obligation to always give the fans what they wanted, but it wasn’t as if they created each successive plot point with total disregard for the ones that came before. That’s not all about pandering to the fans, that’s about being good writers. I’m also still not sure what you mean by “hard sci-fi”. It seems that Star Trek is scrutinized for factual _scientific_ consistency much less than in other areas. I think most fans know that ST is not where you go for hard science. I do think that the writers tried to maintain consistency with any fictional scientific principles that they created (such as warp drive, etc.). > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re saying, but to me this is an indication that canon and continuity is finally being recognized as the needless burden that it is. Abrams wanted to tell his own story, just like any good writer would want to, and hang the canon-freaks. That’s what I _was_ trying to say. By abandoning the need to adhere to the “old” canon, Abrams freed himself to create his own story and characters. This, IMO, probably yielded better results than if he had tried to create a story based around characters that everyone had established ideas about. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/122 "2011-03-29T21:48:12Z")
Is the readership here aware of [Learning to Love Star Trek](http://scifiblock.com/blog/robert-ring/learning-to-love-star-trek-a-new-years-resolution.htm)? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/123 "2011-03-29T21:49:15Z")
> [@Sakuma\_Drops](#): > > By abandoning the need to adhere to the “old” canon, Abrams freed himself to create his own story and characters. This, IMO, probably yielded better results than if he had tried to create a story based around characters that everyone had established ideas about. Except he didn’t really do that. He left the core of the idea – the names and roles of the seven principals – identical to what they had been before, save that Spock and Uhura are now lovers (which I liked, apart from the ethical issue involved in it). And he had to torture his story to do it. I just couldn’t believe that Spock and Kirk would ever be friends after the events in the midpoint of the movie–certainly not as quickly as it developed. I just couldn’t believe that Kirk would get promoted to Captain so quickly. And, as I’ve said, I hated New!Kirk. Not the way one loves-to-hate Don Draper, say; New!Kirk simply had no redeeming characteristics. I couldn’t believe anyone would tolerate him, much less be his friend or willingly follow him. The movie fails for me because Abrams didn’t follow his premise far enough. It would have much more interesting, for instance, if the story had ended with Pike taking the center seat back, Spock being his first officer, and Kirk getting a promotion to _ensign_. And when he complains that he deserves better, have McCoy tell him, “Look, Jim, you’re brilliant and all, but you’re also TWENTY-FOUR YEARS OLD. Your record is exactly one page long. One mission doesn’t make you a captain. Deal with it.” But no, it was all incredibly dickish behavior from Kirk, starting with the moment young Kirk destroys his stepfather’s car, obviously on purpose, and getting worse from there. I couldn’t like him. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/124 "2011-03-29T21:50:18Z")
> [@Sakuma\_Drops](#): > > The Klingon retcon was done for the fans. It indeed was convenient episode fodder for the _Enterprise_ writers (they got a two-parter out of it), but IMO if it had been a bigger deal to the writers in the first place, they would have dealt with it much earlier than 2005. It’s also referenced in the _DS9_ episode “[Trials and Tribble-ations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trials_and_Tribble-ations)” (1996). When several members of the DS9 crew (having gone back in time to Space Station K-7) have trouble understanding that the TOS Klingons as actually Klingons, Worf says, “They _are_ Klingons, and it is a long story…we do not discuss it with outsiders.” However, it doesn’t look like the actual explanation was created until _Enterprise_. ---
**Author:** ![Sakuma\_Drops](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sakuma\_Drops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sakuma_Drops)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/125 "2011-03-29T21:58:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Except he didn’t really do that. He left the core of the idea – the names and roles of the seven principals – identical to what they had been before, save that Spock and Uhura are now lovers (which I liked, apart from the ethical issue involved in it). And he had to torture his story to do it. I just couldn’t believe that Spock and Kirk would ever be friends after the events in the midpoint of the movie–certainly not as quickly as it developed. I just couldn’t believe that Kirk would get promoted to Captain so quickly. > > And, as I’ve said, I hated New!Kirk. Not the way one loves-to-hate Don Draper, say; New!Kirk simply had no redeeming characteristics. I couldn’t believe anyone would tolerate him, much less be his friend or willingly follow him. > > The movie fails for me because Abrams didn’t follow his premise far enough. It would have much more interesting, for instance, if the story had ended with Pike taking the center seat back, Spock being his first officer, and Kirk getting a promotion to _ensign_. And when he complains that he deserves better, have McCoy tell him, “Look, Jim, you’re brilliant and all, but you’re also TWENTY-FOUR YEARS OLD. Your record is exactly one page long. One mission doesn’t make you a captain. Deal with it.” > > But no, it was all incredibly dickish behavior from Kirk, starting with the moment young Kirk destroys his stepfather’s car, obviously on purpose, and getting worse from there. I couldn’t like him. Oh, I totally agree that Abrams could have done a better job with Kirk. That’s probably my biggest problem with his movie; everything else I was okay with. I think they tried a bit too hard to make Kirk “edgy” and “plays by his own rules” (to contrast with Spock), but it was tough to believe how easily he got command of Starfleet’s flagship. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/126 "2011-03-30T09:42:48Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But no, it was all incredibly dickish behavior from Kirk, starting with the moment young Kirk destroys his stepfather’s car, obviously on purpose, and getting worse from there. I couldn’t like him. Take the deleted scenes to be worth whatever you think they are worth, but there’s a deleted scene that establishes that it was in fact George Kirk’s car. The stepdad told Jim to wash the car so he could sell it while their mother was off-planet. Also, it was supposedly his first meaningful act of rebellion ever (to give him some credit, he’s a little kid, it’s not like he’s had much time to develop a record of deviant behavior anyways). That said, since the scene also features Sam Kirk (Jim’s brother), and the movie as-released had Kirk calling him by a different name when he drove past him shortly after… yeah, like I said, take deleted scenes for whatever you think they’re worth. 😃 And yeah, I was also bugged that Kirk got kicked up to Captain by the end of the film. I would have put Spock in the big chair and had Kirk as his barely-restrained Number One. I still place even odds on the next movie opening up to reveal Kirk in the brig (again) for some misadventure or another along with a demotion. Acting against orders, sleeping with a pre-warp chieftain’s daughter, something we could see him doing.😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/127 "2011-03-30T15:19:32Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Just what the Dope needs - a Star Trek pedant. > If I show you a photo of my license plate - **WRP SPD** - will you let me back in? Maybe ---
**Author:** ![ministryman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@ministryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ministryman)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/128 "2011-03-30T15:52:33Z")
**YES! in this order** Star Trek TOS, but save “Let The Be Your Last Battlefield” and “Space Seed” for last Star Trek II (Wrath of Khan) Star Trek III, IV, VI Star Trek TNG series Star Trek VII-X (Generations, First Contact, Insurrection, Nemesis) **NO! Because it’s my opinion and you asked:** Star Trek The Motion Picture Star Trek V Voyager Deep Space Nine Enterprise Star Trek XI Star Trek Animated Series ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/129 "2011-03-30T15:58:54Z")
> [@ministryman](#): > > **YES! in this order** > > Star Trek TOS, but save “Let The Be Your Last Battlefield” and “Space Seed” for last > Star Trek II (Wrath of Khan) > Star Trek III, IV, VI > Star Trek TNG series > Star Trek VII-X (Generations, First Contact, Insurrection, Nemesis) > **NO! Because it’s my opinion and you asked:** > > Star Trek The Motion Picture > Star Trek V > Voyager > Deep Space Nine > Enterprise > Star Trek XI > Star Trek Animated Series Agreed that Voyager kind of sucked on structural grounds, which I think exacerbated the huge variety of sucky scripts (shinynew equipment and ships is fine when you’re IN THE FEDERATION, with starbases and spacedocks and maintenance superstructure, but when you’re tens of thousands of lightyears away from home, in what is, in the most profound sense, foreign space, your ships and equipment should not look like they just took their maiden voyage out of Utopia Planitia). The rest of your “don’t” list I agree with except for DS9. Possibly the best Trek series ever, once they minimized the episodic stories and fired up the arc. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/130 "2011-03-30T16:09:16Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > In fact here’s my own personal suggestion on what to start with: > > Movie - Star Trek VI The undiscovered country > TNG > DS9 > The rest of the movies > Voyager > Enteprise > TOS - maybe. While I won’t even comment on your positioning of TOS at the bottom of that list, I would question how one can really get the most out of ST VI without having seen the series, or at least the preceding movies. So much of that movie is about Kirk/Spock/McCoy growing old together (“Can it be, old friend, that you and I have outlived our usefulness?” . . . or something like that). In fact, ST: VI is the culmination of that theme, that began in ST: II. VI is pretty bland, in my opinion, without a real appreciation and understanding of the stories that came before. > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > You’re also missing out on 99.99% of the sound effects. Most of the background noises (doors, consoles, etc.) are from TOS. Yes! Every time a door opens in Futurama I get nostalgic! Can I also recommend an episode? **A Piece of the Action**. It’s basically a comedy, set on a planet that shaped its culture on an abandoned book left by previous visitors, entitled _Chicago Mobs of the 1920s_. It’s kind of a Damon Runyon meets Star Trek. Totally not to be taken seriously, but very enjoyable. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/131 "2011-03-30T16:17:27Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Can I also recommend an episode? **A Piece of the Action**. It’s basically a comedy, set on a planet that shaped its culture on an abandoned book left by previous visitors, entitled _Chicago Mobs of the 1920s_. It’s kind of a Damon Runyon meets Star Trek. Totally not to be taken seriously, but very enjoyable. Fizzbin! Calvinball of the future! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/132 "2011-03-30T19:50:51Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Take the deleted scenes to be worth whatever you think they are worth, but there’s a deleted scene that establishes that it was in fact George Kirk’s car. The stepdad told Jim to wash the car so he could sell it while their mother was off-planet. Also, it was supposedly his first meaningful act of rebellion ever (to give him some credit, he’s a little kid, it’s not like he’s had much time to develop a record of deviant behavior anyways). Deleted scenes don’t matter. They’re not on the movie screen; they’re not part of the product. > [@](#): > > And yeah, I was also bugged that Kirk got kicked up to Captain by the end of the film. I would have put Spock in the big chair and had Kirk as his barely-restrained Number One. I still place even odds on the next movie opening up to reveal Kirk in the brig (again) for some misadventure or another along with a demotion. Acting against orders, sleeping with a pre-warp chieftain’s daughter, something we could see him doing.😃 Right. That is why I say Abrams wanted to make it _seem_ that he was abandoning old continuity and striking out fresh, but in fact was not. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/133 "2011-03-30T19:52:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Agreed that Voyager kind of sucked on structural grounds, which I think exacerbated the huge variety of sucky scripts (shinynew equipment and ships is fine when you’re IN THE FEDERATION, with starbases and spacedocks and maintenance superstructure, but when you’re tens of thousands of lightyears away from home, in what is, in the most profound sense, foreign space, your ships and equipment should not look like they just took their maiden voyage out of Utopia Planitia). > > The rest of your “don’t” list I agree with except for DS9. Possibly the best Trek series ever, once they minimized the episodic stories and fired up the arc. There’s no _possibly_ needed in the “best Trek series” description of DS9. And even its stand-alone episodes were generally wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/134 "2011-03-30T21:33:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > There’s no _possibly_ needed in the “best Trek series” description of DS9. And even its stand-alone episodes were generally wonderful. _Even if it did shamelessly rip off Babylon 5_ Yes! Horray for Fizzbin!😃 Oh, and the best reason to watch DS9? _Garak._ The humble tailor exiled from his homeworld for failure to pay taxes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/135 "2011-03-30T21:38:53Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > _Even if it did shamelessly rip off Babylon 5_ The usual threats. > [@](#): > > Oh, and the best reason to watch DS9? _Garak._ Fool of a Ferengi! Either you wrote _best_ when you meant _second-best_, or you missplled _O’Brien_. (Or possibly _Jadzia Dax_. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/136 "2011-03-30T21:48:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Either you wrote _best_ when you meant _second-best_, or you missplled _O’Brien_. (Or possibly _Jadzia Dax_. Or Major Kira when she’s angry. Or Intendant Kira whenever. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/137 "2011-03-30T22:06:12Z")
One thing about the J.J.Abrams ST that gave me a stumble. Kirk gets his ass kicked _a lot._ I’m waiting for Trelane or Q or whatever to endow him with invincibility whenever he rips his shirt. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/138 "2011-03-31T01:37:29Z")
The Corbomite Maneuver - Hey, finally some backstory, in the form of a voice-over over the opening titles! That was all I was asking for. Okay, 5 year mission, going exploring in uncharted space, cool. Kirk says later in the episode that their mission is to seek out and contact alien life. This is the episode where they face off against the killer cube from Superman 2. This is by far the best ep I’ve watched, although the end of the episode was pretty silly (but had a Wizard of Oz meets The Twilight Zone feel to it). Aaaah and shirtless Shatner! Hey, and now I know where the design of Kif was based from. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/139 "2011-03-31T01:56:27Z")
I don’t know if you read the credits, but the alien Balok was played by Ron Howard’s younger brother Clint. Although his voice was dubbed by a much older actor, Walker Edmiston, since Howard was only about seven years old at the time. ---
**Author:** ![fusoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@fusoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fusoya)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203/140 "2011-04-01T00:23:38Z")
Mudd’s Women - Now that was just silly. Those women weren’t anything special. They don’t keep Companions on the Enterprise? So Spock’s a virgin, I take it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-star-trek-for-the-first-time/576203.md?page=8)