# Watching the Alfred E Smith Dinner **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 21, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215 "2016-10-21T01:05:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/121 "2016-10-21T20:32:32Z")
> This tweet identifies the man on Trump’s left: “that’s Jim MacGillvray, former senior MD at Paine Webber and Fidelity. I think his wife is an organizer of the event.” And a couple of articles about Tim Kaine, Jesuit spirituality and the concept of _magis_ > **[Tim Kaine's Jesuit spirituality just might appeal to 'nones'](https://religionnews.com/2016/07/25/tim-kaines-jesuit-spirituality-just-might-appeal-to-nones/)** > > (RNS) In choosing Tim Kaine, Hillary Clinton has shifted the religious narrative of the election away from the false equation of “religion” and “Christianity” with radical, conservative, evangelicalism. From the FB page of Jesuit James Martin: Last night at the Al Smith Dinner at the Waldorf-Astoria, the annual fundraising dinner that benefits Catholic Charities, Hillary Clinton mentioned the “magis,” a classic Jesuit ideal. She said that her running mate Tim Kaine, a Jesuit educated man, had taught her about it. What is it? This brief article looks at that concept and several other key concepts in Jesuit spirituality. > **[James Martin: What's so great about Jesuit education?](https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/care-person)** > > The more I meet with Jesuit college students, the more I am convinced that there is something special here. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/122 "2016-10-22T01:26:58Z")
Just another voice chiming in to thank **Alan Smithee** for his thoughtful posts. FWIW, which isn’t much since my memory is crap and it was all around 50 years ago, my personal experience going to Sunday School in a Methodist Church matches his explanation. I particularly recall a contrast being made between “our” beliefs and the Calvinists. As a practical matter, the need to emulate Jesus through words and deeds of kindness and compassion was strongly stressed. Of course, our Sunday School teacher was just the volunteer guy down the street, not a theological expert. But this (former) Methodist didn’t notice anything odd in Hilary’s remarks. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/123 "2016-10-22T02:25:27Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Sorry to continue the hijack, but I did attend a United Methodist seminary for three years. > > It’s a bit of a tricky point to summarize neatly, both because Methodism in the United States is a very broad tent, and because John Wesley, the founder of Methodism and perpetual wellspring of Methodist theology, tacked a narrow course between traditional Protestant _sola fide_ theology and Catholic faith-and-works doctrine. (It’s worth noting that Methodism arose within the Anglican church, which does the same thing.) > > Methodists do believe that salvation comes only through God’s grace, but the defining feature of Methodist theology is that it is Arminian (a reference to an obscure pre-Reformation theologian) in believing that salvation involves a human response to that grace, and that that response involves both assent to belief (faith) and changes in behavior (works). Early Methodism defined itself (and was defined) in contrast with the Calvinist belief that faith itself was out of human hands: not a human response, but an irresistible gift that God predestined certain people to have and others not to. > > Technically, both of these positions are consistent with Luther’s doctrine of _sola fide_ (faith alone), since works are seen not as a cause of salvation, but the inevitable outcome and sign of faith, but in practice, Arminians (which today includes in practical terms a lot of traditionally Calvinist sects; good luck finding a member–lay or clergy–of the Presbyterian Church [USA] today who really accepts Five-Point Calvinism) place a lot more emphasis on doing good works (especially as _part of_, if not the cause of, salvation) than the few remaining Calvinists (generally Southern Baptists, a subset of Evangelicals, and most fundamentalists). > > As mentioned above, though, the issue is even more complicated by the status of the United Methodist Church as the tofu of American religion, which is to say, it picks up the flavor of whatever it is stewed with. In the south, this often means Southern Baptists, who, as mentioned above, are probably the greatest organized concentration of Calvinists in the country. Since the south is also a stronghold of Methodism, you might easily find a third to half the Methodist preachers in the country rejecting Clinton’s description of Methodism just like **Vicsage**. Repeating the whole damn thing because I married the first Methodist I met, and she, through her grandfather, became a V2 Catholic, like me and wouldn’t explain the difference. We settled on the ELCA. But where the fuck did he get that she hated Catholics? When she was young I lived a couple miles up Northwest Highway and we in the NW burbs were either Catholic, Lutheran, or Episcopalian, and someone from another faith would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/124 "2016-10-22T02:57:09Z")
> [@](#): > > **Alan Smithee** , who writes detailed, cogent, informed posts that help me understand the world better. Alan, thanks for this wonderful series of posts–you and folks like you are why I stay around here . I also found the post informative and interesting, and I didn’t even watch the dinner. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/125 "2016-10-22T04:12:56Z")
The funny thing is that several times during the comments by Smith and by Hilary, Trump did look genuinely amused and smiling a big smile. If he could have brought that out more, instead of Angry Donald, it would have helped him, in my opinion. There’s a lot of research that says people are more likely to win a campaign if they’re smiling and look happy. The impression I’ve always had of Trump from his rallies and debates is that he’s angry. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/126 "2016-10-22T04:13:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Trump was already getting huge laughs with “Pardon me.” He didn’t need to explain the joke. But he can’t help stepping on his punchline; it’s what he does at rallies, trying to extend the laughter as long as possible. Every time during this one that people laughed, he continued the joke past its peak point. The whole idea of roasts is that it’s a bunch of deadpanned, in-crowd jokes and the best ones are those that take you down the garden path, both things Trump is completely incapable of doing. The best example is Chinton’s joke about bringing together two antagonists in one room and the punchline was about the mayor and governor. > [@Corry\_El](#): > > But seemed to me some of Clinton’s were not really jokes either and more like what you’d expect at a debate (‘Donald said I was on drugs but I was just better prepared than he was’). Both of them went pretty light on _self_ deprecation. I thought so too, which is really too bad since Trump jokes practically write themselves. I wanted to see a joke about him not accepting the results, and tie it into his birtherism. “Trump will accept the result, he just wants the long form.” or something. > [@dropzone](#): > > But where the fuck did he get that she hated Catholics? See post 118. ---
**Author:** ![brachyrhynchos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brachyrhynchos/32/376_2.png) [@brachyrhynchos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brachyrhynchos)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/127 "2016-10-22T14:15:03Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I was looking at that too. It’s not the Maltese Cross, so he wasn’t a Knight of Malta. It wasn’t the sign of the Knights of Columbus. > > I’m guessing it’s the cross of some Catholic order, but I have no idea which one. I think it’s an “[Order of the British Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire)” medal. I don’t know who he is, but now I’m curious. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/128 "2016-10-22T15:13:44Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > That would be [Maria Bartiromo](http://www.bartiromo.com/). [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Sf4_-ciaJtk/hqdefault.jpg "Joey Ramone - Maria Bartiromo") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf4_-ciaJtk) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/129 "2016-10-22T16:32:31Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But where the fuck did he get that she hated Catholics? > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > See post 118. And for details and background, posts 65, 66 and 73. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/130 "2016-10-22T17:09:23Z")
I’ve been Ramone rolled. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/131 "2016-10-22T20:20:44Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > And I seriously doubt she said a word to him later. Trump doesn’t strike me as someone who would be contrite about using her like that. Lawrence O’Donnell showed a cartoon with pretty much the same joke last night. If the joke was plagiarized it would be very meta, but I think it is not that original a concept, so I’m betting it was written independently. Tom Lehrer’s “Lobachevsky” is my favorite plagiarized bit about plagiarism. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/132 "2016-10-23T17:21:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Trump shat on an American tradition. Every four years, the combatants show up and exchange good natured ribbing and self-deprecating humor for a charity. Instead of tickling his opponent’s ribs, he picked up a 2x4 and starting bashing her with it. This was a cheap shot and yet another sign that he lacks the temperament to be president. Or, put another way: You can dress 'em up but you can’t take 'em out. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/133 "2016-10-24T16:23:31Z")
Thanks for all the kind words. My heart feels strangely warmed by them. (There’s a line only hard-core Methodists will get!) I gave up religion and theism after (actually during) seminary, so there’s not much I can do with my theological education besides hijack SDMB threads (and bore my friends at parties). It’s nice to see it has some value. BTW, I discovered thai I made a mistake in my first post. [Arminius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobus_Arminius) was not a pre-Reformation theologian as I misremembered, but a Dutch Reformed (Calvinist) theologian who challenged the Calvinist orthodoxy of predestination and unconditional election (i.e., “you’re saved if God wants it and you can’t do anything about it one way or the other”). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215/134 "2016-10-27T18:56:33Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The funny thing is that several times during the comments by Smith and by Hilary, Trump did look genuinely amused and smiling a big smile. If he could have brought that out more, instead of Angry Donald, it would have helped him, in my opinion. There’s a lot of research that says people are more likely to win a campaign if they’re smiling and look happy. One of the first things they teach you in comedy; if you’re likable, people will WANT to laugh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watching-the-alfred-e-smith-dinner/769215.md?page=6)