# Watchmen - meh... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 26, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522 "2009-02-26T16:38:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/61 "2009-02-27T11:17:33Z")
No, Superfolks isn’t a book about being a superhero. That’s the point, when you get down to it. It’s using a superhero as a metaphor for growing older, in a muddled 70s way. But the themes in it show up again and again, in Watchmen, in Final Crisis, in Kingdom Come. It’s not a great book. It might not even be a good book. But it is a relevant book, and one that shaped the writing of pretty much the entire field of the british writers somehow. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/62 "2009-02-27T11:55:45Z")
I grew up on British comics, and _Watchmen_, despite the authors’ origins, seemed to be a commentary on American comics, superheroes, and politics. I am not a fan of those latter things, so the story did nothing for me. And I didn’t like the way the pages were layed out, either. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/63 "2009-02-27T12:28:00Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I read the novel last fall in anticipation of the movie and also found it “meh”. > It felt very cliché and the characters had no real depth. It seemed fans were reading more into it than was really there. The plot felt pulled out of the latest video game. This reminds me of when we had a misguided youngster seriously complain that _I Am Legend_ was a ripoff of _28 Days_. I’ve read _Watchmen_ three times now; got something new each time. For instance, today it occurred to me that Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan both exhibit personal behavior (Dr. Manhattan’s nudity, Rorschach’s complete disregard of how bad he smells) and thinking that put them outside humanity – Rorschach because he’s deeply, permanently damaged, Dr. Manhattan because of his godlike perspective. We can never really understand Dr. Manhattan, and maybe we don’t want to understand Rorschach. Also, I’ve got to give Moore and Gibbons points for making great use of Galle Crater on Mars (even though the scale is wrong). ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/64 "2009-02-27T15:32:36Z")
Asylum has stated it perfectly. This book explores the author’s philosophy: on superheroes, on motivations of said people, and the consequences of trying to impose order in a chaotic world. I wrote a paper once exploring the different types of nihilistic philosophies that 4 of the main male characters displayed (Rorsarch, Ozymandius, Dr. Manhattan, and the Comedian for those that want to know). And that wasn’t even Moore’s main purpose. Watchmen (like the Brother’s Karamazov) is not a great book because of coherent logic of the world and plot. Many of the storytelling elements _may_ merely be average (and I would argue that they are far, far above average). It is great because it uses storytelling conventions to examine emotional, moral, and philosophical ideas that are floating in the author’s brain with the reader left to decide who is right. It is not a fluffly Marvel '“What If?” issue. Everything has a purpose and the narrative is used to explore those ideas in an interesting, emotional, and hopefully thought-provoking way. But if you don’t have a positive reaction to it, I would hardly say you “don’t get it.” Everybody has their own taste. If this story did not stimulate your thoughts or maybe you found some of the ideas wanting, than perhaps a different story and presentation would be more appropriate. That is not your fault any more than it is Watchmen’s fault. However, I would expect someone to at least notice and appreciate the amount of love, detail, planning, and thought that went into this project. It is art in the truest sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/65 "2009-02-27T15:45:18Z")
> [@Wolverine](#): > > Asylum has stated it perfectly. This book explores the author’s philosophy: on superheroes, on motivations of said people, and the consequences of trying to impose order in a chaotic world. I wrote a paper once exploring the different types of nihilistic philosophies that 4 of the main male characters displayed (Rorsarch, Ozymandius, Dr. Manhattan, and the Comedian for those that want to know). And that wasn’t even Moore’s main purpose. > > Watchmen (like the Brother’s Karamazov) is not a great book because of coherent logic of the world and plot. Many of the storytelling elements _may_ merely be average (and I would argue that they are far, far above average). It is great because it uses storytelling conventions to examine emotional, moral, and philosophical ideas that are floating in the author’s brain with the reader left to decide who is right. It is not a fluffly Marvel '“What If?” issue. Everything has a purpose and the narrative is used to explore those ideas in an interesting, emotional, and hopefully thought-provoking way. > > But if you don’t have a positive reaction to it, I would hardly say you “don’t get it.” Everybody has their own taste. If this story did not stimulate your thoughts or maybe you found some of the ideas wanting, than perhaps a different story and presentation would be more appropriate. That is not your fault any more than it is Watchmen’s fault. However, I would expect someone to at least notice and appreciate the amount of love, detail, planning, and thought that went into this project. It is art in the truest sense of the word. Well said. And I hope you spelled _Rorschach_ and _Ozymandias_ correctly in your paper. (I don’t use smilies, but if I did, I’d use a winking one here.) ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/66 "2009-02-27T16:20:37Z")
In regard to Dr. Manhattan working for the government, it’s clear that when he first appeared nobody really had any idea what to _do_ with him, and the government turned him into a costumed hero as a way of presenting himself to the world (remember that they change Nite-Owl’s quote from “God exists, and he’s American,” to “The Superman exists, and he’s American”). When some time has passed, we see that Doc Manhattan has gone from that, to being a military weapon, to apparently occupying more of a research role and doing stuff like making all those airships possible. Regarding Lochdale’s complaint, it’s also pretty clear that the heroes we’re following just happen to be the ones that survived. Almost all of the Minutemen are dead or insane, with only Nite-Owl, Silk Spectre, and The Comedian living to old age. Dollar Bill’s death has been mentioned, and Hooded Justice and that other female Minuteman (the lesbian) were murdered. With regards to Silk Spectre 2, don’t forget that she spent most of her career palling around with Dr. Manhattan. Nite-Owl 2 has all kinds of advanced weaponry as well as what amounts to a big floating tank that he rides around in. It doesn’t require any more suspension of disbelief than reading a nonfiction story about a police officer who sees action but escapes with his life. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/67 "2009-02-27T18:12:19Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > Well said. And I hope you spelled _Rorschach_ and _Ozymandias_ correctly in your paper. (I don’t use smilies, but if I did, I’d use a winking one here.) I typed it in up in the quick reply and didn’t see the red squiggly lines (must be color-blind). I was too lazy to double-check. Oops! ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/68 "2009-02-27T18:43:28Z")
> [@Asylum](#): > > [ > Moore didn’t have it both ways: the story isn’t about what is physically possible, it’s about what would be social probable if superheroes existed. The superheroes physical traits were only important in that Moore required them to be normal and make it to the end of the story. Moore wasn’t examining what kind of shape a person has to be in be a superhero and he _had_ to fudge what normal was because otherwise the characters would all be dead by page three. He absolutely does. He has non-powered masked heroes coming from the general populace (entirely improbably but even if we go along these lines then why weren’t there 10,000 of them rather than 10 or so?) and goes to great lengths to state that there is only one true powered character. However, in order to justify Ozymandis’ plan he introduces a physchic to empower the bomb and then suggests that humanity, at least some humans anyways, have latent mental powers. Huh? Why not just give them a modicum of super powers? It eliminates a lot of my cirticisms right then and there. Sorry. but to me, this is a fundamental flaw in the book. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/69 "2009-02-27T18:48:42Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > He absolutely does. He has non-powered masked heroes coming from the general populace (entirely improbably but even if we go along these lines then why weren’t there 10,000 of them rather than 10 or so?) and goes to great lengths to state that there is only one true powered character. However, in order to justify Ozymandis’ plan he introduces a physchic to empower the bomb and then suggests that humanity, at least some humans anyways, have latent mental powers. Huh? > > Why not just give them a modicum of super powers? It eliminates a lot of my cirticisms right then and there. Sorry. but to me, this is a fundamental flaw in the book. I am with you on many of your gripes Lochdale. Silk Spectre II being the plot device that always struck me as false. Necessary for the novel alagory, but false. I am with you on the psycic powers thing too, I didn’t think that was the best way to go, but ultimately I think its a minor flaw not a major one. But, this bit from the above > [@](#): > > He has non-powered masked heroes coming from the general populace (entirely improbably but even if we go along these lines then why weren’t there 10,000 of them rather than 10 or so?) and goes to great lengths to state that there is only one true powered character. answers your gripe about the heroes being vulnerable to attack. The reason there are only 10 or so instead of 10,000 is because those are the only ones who were able to survive. The rest who try end up hurt or get killed just like you say they will earlier in the thread. The ones that the comic focuses on are a combination of good and lucky and that is why they are the only ones around. They are the minority and that is actually an important element of the plot. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/70 "2009-02-27T19:07:16Z")
Am I the only one who keeps expecting **Lochdale** to say that _Watchmen_ “insists upon itself?” ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/71 "2009-02-27T19:08:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Regarding Lochdale’s complaint, it’s also pretty clear that the heroes we’re following just happen to be the ones that survived. Almost all of the Minutemen are dead or insane, with only Nite-Owl, Silk Spectre, and The Comedian living to old age. Dollar Bill’s death has been mentioned, and Hooded Justice and that other female Minuteman (the lesbian) were murdered. > > With regards to Silk Spectre 2, don’t forget that she spent most of her career palling around with Dr. Manhattan. Nite-Owl 2 has all kinds of advanced weaponry as well as what amounts to a big floating tank that he rides around in. > > It doesn’t require any more suspension of disbelief than reading a nonfiction story about a police officer who sees action but escapes with his life. I think it does given the serious tone of the book and the fact that the book wanted to explore the notion of masked heroes amongst us in a serious manner. Can’t have it both ways. A modicum of super powers would have let Moore do everything he wanted to without a gaping flaw. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/72 "2009-02-27T19:09:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Am I the only one who keeps expecting **Lochdale** to say that _Watchmen_ “insists upon itself?” I honestly wish I had said that. You owe me a new keyboard and pants as I spat diet coke over both upon reading this. Funniest thing I have seen in a long time. Can I sig this? ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/73 "2009-02-27T19:10:28Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > answers your gripe about the heroes being vulnerable to attack. The reason there are only 10 or so instead of 10,000 is because those are the only ones who were able to survive. The rest who try end up hurt or get killed just like you say they will earlier in the thread. The ones that the comic focuses on are a combination of good and lucky and that is why they are the only ones around. They are the minority and that is actually an important element of the plot. Perhaps but the book doesn’t mention (or if if did I missed it) all the other masks who were wiped out. Maybe a slight mention about vigilantes and pole sitters as fads that vanished in the 20’s 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/74 "2009-02-27T19:17:09Z")
**Lochdale** , of course you’re entitled to your personal preference not to like works that have non-superhuman characters doing superhuman things, but you can’t really fault Moore for this. It’s a convention of the genre. Batman, Captain America, the Punisher, Daredevil, Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, etc. all have minimal or no powers, and yet are able to perform crazy feats like outfighting dozens of armed opponents or even beating genuinely superhuman opponents. As others have commented above, the same convention exists in many action movies. Surely having superpowers exist at all, much less exist in dozens of instances, is just as unbelievable according to “real life rules” as having ostensibly non-superpowered characters do superhuman things. One could argue that by making the existence of superpowers a one time fluke, Moore was at least adhering _closer_ to real life than typical superhero comics. Of course, readers of superhero comics except that the existence of superpowers is a convention of the genre, and agree to suspend disbelief. But why is it any _harder_ to suspend disbelief about non-superpowered characters doing superhuman things. I mean, if we can accept “A spider bite gives you super strength”, why not accept “Martial arts training gives you extroardinary ass-kicking abilities”? To me, saying “They got to be so super tough from intense training” is no more hard to accept than “they got to be super tough from cosmic rays”. It’s not like having Lois Lane suddenly be able to beat up 20 armed men with no explanation given. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/75 "2009-02-27T19:22:00Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > I honestly wish I had said that. > > You owe me a new keyboard and pants as I spat diet coke over both upon reading this. > > Funniest thing I have seen in a long time. Can I sig this? Be my guest. I think we all have at least one sacred cow that we don’t get that everyone else loves. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/76 "2009-02-27T19:22:26Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > He absolutely does. He has non-powered masked heroes coming from the general populace (entirely improbably but even if we go along these lines then why weren’t there 10,000 of them rather than 10 or so?) Because most people don’t have the sort of psychological kinks (at least not to so severe an extent) that drive these characters. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/77 "2009-02-27T19:26:58Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Because most people don’t have the sort of psychological kinks (at least not to so severe an extent) that drive these characters. That’s it right there. To be really committed to it over a long period of time takes a certain degree of crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/78 "2009-02-27T20:10:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s it right there. To be really committed to it over a long period of time takes a certain degree of crazy. Well this country has a lot more than 10 or so crazies. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/79 "2009-02-27T20:18:48Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > **Lochdale** , Of course, readers of superhero comics except that the existence of superpowers is a convention of the genre, and agree to suspend disbelief. But why is it any _harder_ to suspend disbelief about non-superpowered characters doing superhuman things. I mean, if we can accept “A spider bite gives you super strength”, why not accept “Martial arts training gives you extroardinary ass-kicking abilities”? > > To me, saying “They got to be so super tough from intense training” is no more hard to accept than “they got to be super tough from cosmic rays”. It’s not like having Lois Lane suddenly be able to beat up 20 armed men with no explanation given. Because we know that martial arts training really doesn’t help all that much. A radioactive spider is that much more esoteric that we can suspend disbelief. Personally, I’ve always had a problem with the Batman and Punisher type comics but that’s just me. For me, if I make the leap that this character is, say from another planet, it’s easier to suspend disbelief. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/80 "2009-02-27T20:25:07Z")
One thing I still never understand is the point of the Pirate comic. Can someone suss that out for me a bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522.md?page=5)