# Watchmen - meh... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 26, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522 "2009-02-26T16:38:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/81 "2009-02-27T20:26:31Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Because we know that martial arts training really doesn’t help all that much. A radioactive spider is that much more esoteric that we can suspend disbelief. Personally, I’ve always had a problem with the Batman and Punisher type comics but that’s just me. For me, if I make the leap that this character is, say from another planet, it’s easier to suspend disbelief. So do you find the Dr. Manhatten storyline at all satisfying, the idea that someone with real powers (like Superman)? ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/82 "2009-02-27T20:31:50Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > So do you find the Dr. Manhatten storyline at all satisfying, the idea that someone with real powers (like Superman)? Absolutely find it satisfying. This is going to sound odd I’m sure but Manhattan does not take me out of the story. It’s a freak accident that results in a superbeing. It’s comepletely within the comic genre. Manhattan makes sense to me in the context of the story because once I accept that he is what he is then I can accpet his role, powers etc. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/83 "2009-02-27T20:35:20Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > One thing I still never understand is the point of the Pirate comic. Can someone suss that out for me a bit. You really don’t get it? It’s an extreme comment on the whole theme of the would-be protector becoming a monster. The castaway in the pirate comic is obsessed with getting home to save his family, but… He’s an analogue to Ozymandius in a way. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/84 "2009-02-27T20:37:15Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > One thing I still never understand is the point of the Pirate comic. Can someone suss that out for me a bit. It’s basically an analogy, for the most part, to Ozymandias. Resorting to desperaate and horrific means for a perceived greater good. For example, the castaway literally rides the corpses of his dead crewmates to get back home much like Ozymandias using his former colleagues to get what he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/85 "2009-02-27T20:38:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Little Nemo I’m not sure if you’re playing devil’s advocate but I’m going to respond anyways. > > Moore didn’t have it both ways: the story isn’t about what is physically possible, it’s about what would be social probable if superheroes existed. The superheroes physical traits were only important in that Moore required them to be normal and make it to the end of the story. Moore wasn’t examining what kind of shape a person has to be in be a superhero and he had to fudge what normal was because otherwise the characters would all be dead by page three. I agree with this. I wasn’t saying I endorsed the point I was making; just that I understood what it was. Too many people seemed to have gotten locked into nitpicking about bullets and such. My point of view is that Moore wasn’t commenting on the physical aspects of superheroics - if he had wanted to do that, he’d have written [this book](http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Superheroes-James-Kakalios/dp/B000RO9ZRI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235766830&sr=1-1). Moore was essentially saying “Okay, let’s accept it as a given that it’s physically possible for people to do the kind of things that Batman or Daredevil do. Now what would be the psychological effect on those people and what would be the social effect on the world?” So Moore used the physical conventions of the genre while questioning its psychological and social conventions. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/86 "2009-02-27T20:43:07Z")
> [@](#): > > One thing I still never understand is the point of the Pirate comic. Can someone suss that out for me a bit. Metafiction. _Tales of the Black Freighter_ was a comic book that existed in a comic book world. Moore was pointing out that the pirate comic book story that the characters were reading served as a metaphor for events in their world. And by extension, the superhero story we were reading served as a metaphor for our world. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/87 "2009-02-27T20:44:05Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > It’s basically an analogy, for the most part, to Ozymandias. Resorting to desperaate and horrific means for a perceived greater good. For example, the castaway literally rides the corpses of his dead crewmates to get back home much like Ozymandias using his former colleagues to get what he wants. This is true, but there is more too it. The castaway’s experiences mirror, at some point or other, many of the experiences of each of the main characters. This is subtext but it is never subtle. When Dr. Manhattan repairs to Mars, the castaway meditates on his isolation at the same time. The castaway story helps to generalize the experiences of the individual Minutemen and to cast them in higher relief. It is interesting subtext and helps to bind the story together, but it is rarely subtle. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/88 "2009-02-27T21:18:52Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Well this country has a lot more than 10 or so crazies. To paraphrase Tolstoy, sane people are all alike and crazy people are each crazy in their own way. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/89 "2009-02-27T21:49:38Z")
For Silk Spectre 2, maybe Doctor Manhattan imbued her with some powers on the sly? They met when Laurie was just getting started. He could have similarly turned those bullets aimed at her into steam and erased the assailant from existance without anyone knowing. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/90 "2009-02-27T21:50:25Z")
Damn it, people. Seriously. _Rorschach. __Ozymandias.__ Manhattan._ > [@Lochdale](#): > > Because we know that martial arts training really doesn’t help all that much. A radioactive spider is that much more esoteric that we can suspend disbelief. Personally, I’ve always had a problem with the Batman and Punisher type comics but that’s just me. For me, if I make the leap that this character is, say from another planet, it’s easier to suspend disbelief. So what you don’t like is a 70-year-old convention used throughout an entire genre. Fine – but that doesn’t make is a “gaping flaw” in _Watchmen_ or any other particular comic. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/91 "2009-02-27T21:54:05Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > This is true, but there is more too it. The castaway’s experiences mirror, at some point or other, many of the experiences of each of the main characters. This is subtext but it is never subtle. When Dr. Manhattan repairs to Mars, the castaway meditates on his isolation at the same time. The castaway story helps to generalize the experiences of the individual Minutemen and to cast them in higher relief. It is interesting subtext and helps to bind the story together, but it is rarely subtle. I guess my confusion is why Moore felt the need to include it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/92 "2009-02-27T22:08:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He wasn’t questioning the validity of the conventions. He was exploring the genre, not trying to discredit it. How would the world react to a real, genuine superman? How would society react to real, masked vigilantes. > > Moore has said that Rorschach (not Nite Owl) was his real take on Batman The Question, not Batman. The Question was a character who was created by Steve Ditko wanting to explore Ayn Rand’s black and white (geddit?) “A is A” point of view (which Ditko was enamored with at the time. After the company folded, Ditko went on to create Mr. A (again, from Rand’s maxim “A is A”) who was so extreme as to make Rorschach (let alone The Question) seem like Captain Nice. All the Watchmen characters were based on characters from that same comic company (Charleton). Silk Specter=Nightshade, Dr. Manhattan=Captain Atom, Night Owl=Blue Beetle, Comedian=Peacemaker (Peacemaker: The Man Who LOVED Peace So Much He Was Willing To KILL For It! \<-Actual tag line from the book) etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/93 "2009-02-27T22:09:49Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I guess my confusion is why Moore felt the need to include it at all. Errr, because it adds richness, and layers, and perspective to the storyline? ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/94 "2009-02-27T22:13:10Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > So what you don’t like is a 70-year-old convention used throughout an entire genre. Fine – but that doesn’t make is a “gaping flaw” in _Watchmen_ or any other particular comic. For me, I get why Batman doesn’t use guns. I get why Spiderman doesn’t use guns. I get why Veidt doesn’t need guns (at least at the end). I get why Manhattan doesn’t need guns. I don’t get (or didn’t buy, it’s been awhile since I read Watchmen) why Rorschach, Silk Spectre, Night Owl, Dollar Bill, etc. aren’t armed to the teeth if they’re going to be out confronting criminals all day. I don’t think it’s a gaping flaw, just something that wasn’t really explained adequately to me for a comic that is supposed to take place in the “real world” ---
**Author:** ![ricksummon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ricksummon/32/3333_2.png) [@ricksummon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricksummon)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/95 "2009-02-27T22:13:21Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I guess my confusion is why Moore felt the need to include it at all. Because in a world where superheroes are _real,_ no one would read superhero comics. So, Moore asked himself what kind of comics they _would_ read, and decided to go with pirates. Because, as everyone knows, pirates are just that cool. (Except that ninjas are, of course, cooler. It should have been _Tales of the Black Ninja,_ in which a ninja singlehandedly wipes out the island of Tortuga. How that would relate to the main plot, I don’t know. But ninjas are still cooler. 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/96 "2009-02-27T22:16:40Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Errr, because it adds richness, and layers, and perspective to the storyline? I’m not seeing that, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/97 "2009-02-27T22:24:03Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > So what you don’t like is a 70-year-old convention used throughout an entire genre. Fine – but that doesn’t make is a “gaping flaw” in _Watchmen_ or any other particular comic. No, because this was supposed to be a serious examination of the genre. Such a serious examination should either show the logical results of trying to take the law into your own hands or should have just given the Watchmen a modicum of super powers. Moore has it both ways (particularly with the need for mental powers to empower the bomb). This takes me right out of the book which, to me, is a gaping flaw. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Prox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/da6949/32.png) [@Prox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prox)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/98 "2009-02-27T22:24:36Z")
I find it hard to see the pirate comic as anything but filler. Sure, it reflected the plot and themes of the larger story, but it was in a particularly anvilicious manner. It was neat seeing pirate comics instead of superhero comics, but a little subtlety would’ve been nice. ---
**Author:** ![Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Ian\_D.Bergkamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ian_D.Bergkamp)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/99 "2009-02-27T22:36:16Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > No, because this was supposed to be a serious examination of the genre. Such a serious examination should either show the logical results of trying to take the law into your own hands or should have just given the Watchmen a modicum of super powers. Moore has it both ways (particularly with the need for mental powers to empower the bomb). This takes me right out of the book which, to me, is a gaping flaw. YMMV. As pointed out above, Moore _did_ show the logical results of trying to take the law into your own hands. Several heroes in the book have very sad ends, including death and insanity. Even the major characters have consequences to their actions. Rorschach, in particular, undergoes a pretty drastic transformation as a result of his experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/100 "2009-02-27T22:55:04Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > I don’t get (or didn’t buy, it’s been awhile since I read Watchmen) why Rorschach, Silk Spectre, Night Owl, Dollar Bill, etc. aren’t armed to the teeth if they’re going to be out confronting criminals all day. I don’t think it’s a gaping flaw, just something that wasn’t really explained adequately to me for a comic that is supposed to take place in the “real world” It was explained very adequately if you read between the lines. The Minutemen, for the most part, did not kill. Even the most extreme of them, Rorschach, never killed anyone until the Blair Roche case. His experience killing Grice changed him irrevocably, as is recounted in some detail. Given Rorshach’s otherwise absolutist morality, the fact that he crossed the line into murder is an act of major consequence. Even the Comedian used rubber bullets during the police strike. Not killing is just about the only thing that separated the costumed adventurers from their prey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522.md?page=6)