# Watchmen - meh... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 26, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522 "2009-02-26T16:38:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/101 "2009-02-27T23:08:25Z")
My bolding… > [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > I don’t get (or didn’t buy, it’s been awhile since I read Watchmen) why Rorschach, Silk Spectre, **Night Owl,** Dollar Bill, etc. aren’t armed to the teeth if they’re going to be out confronting criminals all day. Dude, his ship has missiles and flamethrowers. I think he’s armed enough. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/102 "2009-02-28T01:11:52Z")
I didn’t like it because it was the comic equivalent of fine literature, which I don’t like either. Watchmen tried to be social commentary on the times (Cold War, etc.) and just tried too hard to be _smart_. If a comic book got taught alongside The Great Gatsby in school, it would be Watchmen. It was never entertaining to me, I felt like a teacher was going to pop out and quiz me on the significance of Rorschach’s name and ask me to deconstruct the pirate comic and relate it to the main plot. I think I’ll like it better in movie form though! Shush, I like my fluffy comfort reading. I’m a genre reader, damnit! ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/103 "2009-02-28T01:25:21Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > I didn’t like it because it was the comic equivalent of fine literature, which I don’t like either. Watchmen tried to be social commentary on the times (Cold War, etc.) and just tried too hard to be _smart_. I’m guessing you haven’t read any other Alan Moore. The dude isn’t “trying” to be smart. (That job, as I mentioned earlier, belongs to Brian K. Vaughn :p.) ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/104 "2009-02-28T02:38:08Z")
When I talk to people who haven’t read _Watchmen_ about the book, I usually tell them that it’s the _Citizen Kane_ of comics. With all that entails. Enormously influential, worthy of endless study, meticulously and deftly crafted, extremely fulfilling… and potentially a total drag to sit through, and an explanation regarding what makes it so special will probably be necessary for a lot of people. I’ve read the book more times than I can count, and I noticed something new every single time I read it. To an extent, every single superhero comic that has been published _since_ is a response to it. But it can be a bit of a chore. I didn’t make it through my first time reading it. I can’t agree that Moore’s treatment of the non-powered vigilantes is any kind of hole, or that he didn’t address it. He addressed it the only way he could while still having living characters to work with, and giving those characters super-powers would have completely and utterly changed the book by undermining the importance of Dr. Manhattan. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/105 "2009-02-28T03:49:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I didn’t like it because it was the comic equivalent of fine literature, which I don’t like either. Watchmen tried to be social commentary on the times (Cold War, etc.) and just tried too hard to be smart. It had a cold war setting but it wasn’t about the cold war. As I’ve said before, it’s a comic book about comic books. That’s why I don’t really recommend it for people who don’t read comic books. _Watchmen_ isn’t an introduction to the comic book genre; it’s a commentary on the genre aimed at people who’ve read hundreds of other comic books. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/106 "2009-02-28T04:10:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > _Watchmen_ isn’t an introduction to the comic book genre; it’s a commentary on the genre aimed at people who’ve read hundreds of other comic books. I wasn’t an up-to-date comic kid, and so when I read _Watchmen_ for the first time when I was 17, I had read just about everything EC had put out, but nothing else. It amazed me because it was “superhero” stuff that wasn’t completely banal, and also because it was so clear from all the paratextual elements that Moore really understood the appeal of EC comics. Each time I reread it, I enjoyed it more. Maybe it’s just me, but I always had the impression the _Watchmen_ took graphic novels out of the ghetto. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/107 "2009-02-28T07:54:52Z")
Well, _Watchmen_ and (ironically enough) _Maus_ did that together, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/108 "2009-02-28T08:04:17Z")
And you’re saying graphicl novels were “in the ghetto” why? Because of _A Contract With God_? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/109 "2009-02-28T13:04:42Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > I wasn’t an up-to-date comic kid, and so when I read _Watchmen_ for the first time when I was 17, I had read just about everything EC had put out, but nothing else. > > It amazed me because it was “superhero” stuff that wasn’t completely banal, and also because it was so clear from all the paratextual elements that Moore really understood the appeal of EC comics. > > Each time I reread it, I enjoyed it more. Maybe it’s just me, but I always had the impression the _Watchmen_ took graphic novels out of the ghetto. Interesting; it occurs to me now that “Tales of the Black Freighter” could easily be an EC horror comic. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/110 "2009-02-28T15:03:33Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Or that if Dr. Manhattan was all-powerful, why would he be serving a government role? Incidentally, this is also clearly addressed if your read between the lines. Doctor Manhattan mentions that for his whole life, he had been “pushed into things” and had just gone along with it. He was training to be a watchmaker, like his father, until his father threw away his tools and pushed him into particle physics. He was already working for the government after he received his PhD, so it was a natural progression to continue to work for the government. Soon after his transformation, he was still essentially Jon Osterman. His transformation into someone who could not feel warmth or cold was gradual. He barely even noticed it. Despite his cosmic power, he just went along with what all of the strong personalities wanted him to do. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/111 "2009-02-28T15:34:40Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Incidentally, this is also clearly addressed if your read between the lines. Doctor Manhattan mentions that for his whole life, he had been “pushed into things” and had just gone along with it. He was training to be a watchmaker, like his father, until his father threw away his tools and pushed him into particle physics. He was already working for the government after he received his PhD, so it was a natural progression to continue to work for the government. > > Soon after his transformation, he was still essentially Jon Osterman. His transformation into someone who could not feel warmth or cold was gradual. He barely even noticed it. Despite his cosmic power, he just went along with what all of the strong personalities wanted him to do. Agreed. They left him alone with Laurie and let him work. No one was gonna push him to do something he didn’t want to do-he was the 800 pound gorilla. As for the rest, I think the government basically passed the Keene Act and left the supers well enough alone. They were a minor quibble, and finding Ol’ Spotface would have been more trouble than it was worth. Let him kill a few creeps, so what? Let’s face it, part of the reason for the pirate comic is also that Alan Moore is a bit of a pompous writer who I’m sure patted himself on the back for including it. When I first read Watchmen I thought Manhattan was meant to be Firestorm. That works better, somehow. And amusingly the Question in Justice League Unlimited is very Rorschach-like. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/112 "2009-02-28T15:42:44Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Agreed. They left him alone with Laurie and let him work. No one was gonna push him to do something he didn’t want to do-he was the 800 pound gorilla. As for the rest, I think the government basically passed the Keene Act and left the supers well enough alone. They were a minor quibble, and finding Ol’ Spotface would have been more trouble than it was worth. Let him kill a few creeps, so what? > > Let’s face it, part of the reason for the pirate comic is also that Alan Moore is a bit of a pompous writer who I’m sure patted himself on the back for including it. > > When I first read Watchmen I thought Manhattan was meant to be Firestorm. That works better, somehow. And amusingly the Question in Justice League Unlimited is very Rorschach-like. Alan Moore may in fact be a pompous writer. I know nothing about the man. The Pirate sequence really does have an important place in Watchmen, though. Not only does it add multiple levels to the story, it casts some of the characters in high relief and develops their points of view through contrast and juxtaposition. And apparently in The Question #17, the eponymous hero tries to use some of Rorschach’s tactics and fails. This causes him to conclude that [Rorschach sucks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_(comics)#References). ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/113 "2009-02-28T16:58:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I guess it’s not an accident that he’s called Rorschach. He’s also got the best line in the entire book, and I’ve read Jackie Earle Haley’s reading of that line is getting cheers in the screenings. What line? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/114 "2009-02-28T17:20:37Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > What line? “None of you understand. I’m not locked up in here with you. You’re locked up in here with **me**.” ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/115 "2009-02-28T17:24:40Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Alan Moore may in fact be a pompous writer. Sadly, at his worst I fear he can be. Exhibit A: **The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Black Dossier**. It’s not worthless, but…the phrase _self-indulgent_ does spring to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/116 "2009-02-28T17:25:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “None of you understand. I’m not locked up in here with you. You’re locked up in here with **me**.” Ooh, that’s good. I had forgotten about that line. But my favorite is still: “No. Not even in face of armageddon. Never compromise.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/117 "2009-02-28T17:29:15Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Ooh, that’s good. I had forgotten about that line. But my favorite is still: “No. Not even in face of armageddon. Never compromise.” Or his one word response taped to the body of a dead multiple rapist after the passage of the Keene Act: NEVER ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/118 "2009-02-28T18:29:09Z")
Watchman fan checking in - late to the party as usual. (Darn that DC area traffic. I couldn’t find a working spark hydrant _anywhere_!!) Anywhoozle, one flaw I found in Watchmen was that it’s set in the US, but written by Brits. Because said Brits are very good at what they do, I only noticed this in two ways. The trivial way is that when the folded US flag is placed on Eddie Blake’s coffin, it’s folded in a rectangle. It’s not folded in the [traditional triangle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_flag#Folding_for_storage). I noticed that immediately when I first read issue # 2. I fully admit this is a nitpick. Well, it’s picking dust mites off a nit. But in a comic where every detail - every newspaper, every magazine headline[sup]1[/sup], has deep significance, I think this detail is worth mentioning. There, I mentioned it. Whoopee! The other piece of BritThink that I find in Watchmen is that all of the major characters are based in New York City. Or at least very near it. Even during the “Costumed Hero” fad of the 30s (you remember, along with swallowing goldfish and sitting on flagpoles?), there were no masked adventurers based in Boston, or DC, or Chicago, or Atlanta, or in media-rich LA? I think that’s a mistake. It may not have had any effect on the story, but it is missing. To many people outside the US, the US _IS_ New York. Maybe one can say that London “is” England or Paris “is” France, but that’s not how we 'Mericans feel. New Yorkers reject the notion of NYC=US in their [own way](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Steinberg#The_.22View_of_the_World.22_cover). US-ians outside of NYC feel that, in the words of Orson Scott Card, “New York is a foreign port which, through an accident of history, is technically part of the United States”. Both of these pieces of BritThink have, IMNSHO, minimal effects on Watchmen as a novel (graphic or otherwise). But I wouldn’t be a fanwanker if I didn’t bring them up on the Internet. [sup]1[/sup] The Veidt Method - I will give you bodies beyond your wildest imaginings! :SHUDDER: ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/119 "2009-02-28T19:20:54Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > The other piece of BritThink that I find in Watchmen is that all of the major characters are based in New York City. Or at least very near it. Even during the “Costumed Hero” fad of the 30s (you remember, along with swallowing goldfish and sitting on flagpoles?), there were no masked adventurers based in Boston, or DC, or Chicago, or Atlanta, or in media-rich LA? I think that’s a mistake. It may not have had any effect on the story, but it is missing. I think that this was intentional too. Moore was playing with superhero tropes, one of them is that all superheroes are based in NYC or an NYC analogue. At least in the Golden and much of the Silver Age. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522/120 "2009-02-28T22:24:53Z")
Yeah, in fairness, there aren’t many _mainstream_ superheroes outside of NYC. In the Marvel universe for example, you’ve only got the Runaways in L.A., and the X-Men just recently moved to SF. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen-meh/487522.md?page=7)