# Watchmen **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 24, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948 "2008-02-24T14:22:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/81 "2008-03-19T03:12:01Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] As you wrote, he might possibly make a self-referential movie about the superhero movie genre and it might be great. Or he might make a great action movie. But it won’t be _Watchmen_ - it’ll be a different work with the same name and some common characters. [/QUOTE] But that’s what you get when you adapt any idea or story from one medium to another, from Titus Andronicus to No Country For Old Men to Sin City. All different works, some truer in spirit to the original than others, but still different works with the same names and some common characters. I think the purists are getting way too hung up on this with Watchmen because it’s sort of a “sacred cow.” At the end of the day, everyone’s precious trade paperback will still be on their shelves, their twelve issues will be nestled safely in mylar in their longboxes, and we’ll have an interesting (and possibly very good) movie as well, capturing the spirit of the original work in a whole new medium. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/82 "2008-03-19T04:58:10Z")
> [@](#): > > But that’s what you get when you adapt any idea or story from one medium to another, from Titus Andronicus to No Country For Old Men to Sin City. All different works, some truer in spirit to the original than others, but still different works with the same names and some common characters. I think the purists are getting way too hung up on this with Watchmen because it’s sort of a “sacred cow.” At the end of the day, everyone’s precious trade paperback will still be on their shelves, their twelve issues will be nestled safely in mylar in their longboxes, and we’ll have an interesting (and possibly very good) movie as well, capturing the spirit of the original work in a whole new medium. I agree with you for the most part. There are plenty of works of art that can have their essential spirit transferred over into a new work of art. But I maintain that _Watchmen_ is one of the rare exceptions - in its case the medium itself is an essential part of its spirit so it can’t be transferred. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/83 "2008-03-19T05:29:57Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] This is a joke, right? [/QUOTE] What’s funny about it? I agree with him 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/84 "2008-03-19T05:31:50Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I agree with you for the most part. There are plenty of works of art that can have their essential spirit transferred over into a new work of art. But I maintain that _Watchmen_ is one of the rare exceptions - in its case the medium itself is an essential part of its spirit so it can’t be transferred. [/QUOTE] I haven’t read this thing. But why would it be wrong to think that the work is essentially about the notion of a superhero, without being essentially about the comic book medium? Certainly the notion of the superhero has much of its origin in that medium, but they are not _essentially_ connected, are they? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/85 "2008-03-19T05:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] I haven’t read this thing. But why would it be wrong to think that the work is essentially about the notion of a superhero, without being essentially about the comic book medium? Certainly the notion of the superhero has much of its origin in that medium, but they are not _essentially_ connected, are they? -FrL- [/QUOTE] You need to read it. It really is about the medium. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/86 "2008-03-19T06:26:11Z")
[QUOTE=Big Bad Voodoo Lou] You need to read it. It really is about the medium. [/QUOTE] Well, yeah, it’s on my list. But can someone say something about why it’s essentially about the medium and not just about the idea of the superhero that evolved in that medium? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/87 "2008-03-19T10:59:26Z")
If the medium relies on the written word alone to get its message across then its a novel. If most of the message is conveyed by pictures with just the dialogue and perhaps some scene setting put across as the written word then its a comic book. A picture saves a thousand words but it doesn’t convey thoughts,emotions and history to the reader. The reason why books haven’t be surplaced by T.V. and movies is because the two mediums can never give as much in depth information as litereature. ---
**Author:** ![freekalette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@freekalette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freekalette)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/88 "2008-03-19T13:24:10Z")
**Larry Borgia** , the Matrix isn’t entirely original. It was influenced heavily by _gasp!_ a comic book! (According to my friend the comic book guru; I haven’t read more than the first trade) ---
**Author:** ![freekalette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@freekalette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freekalette)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/89 "2008-03-19T13:44:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Comparisons have also been made to Grant Morrison’s comic series The Invisibles; Morrison believes that the Wachowski brothers essentially plagiarized his work to create the film. Taken from Wiki [The Matrix (franchise) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influences_and_interpretations_of_The_Matrix) (Because I know better than to post without a cite, honestly!) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/90 "2008-03-19T16:14:44Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] This is a joke, right? [/QUOTE] So you’ve never heard of “Hidden Fortress”, or the “Demon with a Glass Hand” and “Soldier” _Outer Limits_ episodes? And see **freekalette** ’s link. I’d say “Alien” is the only _original_ story in the lot. And I wouldn’t be surprised if even that wasn’t the case. Just because the others weren’t ripped off from a source with the same title, doesn’t make them remotely “original”. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/91 "2008-03-19T16:21:15Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] So you’ve never heard of “Hidden Fortress” [/quote] Which doesn’t have the plot of _Star Wars_ by any stretch of the imagination. It has a princess and two comic-relief characters through whose eyes we see most of the action, and that’s pretty much it. Lucas liked the movie, liked how it was told through the most unimportant characters, and used that. The first scene is very similar to the “R2D2 and C3P0 in the desert” scene, but apart from that, there’s little. This is not to say that the _Star Wars_ story is original, of course; it was created specifically to be unoriginal. But a _Hidden Fortress_ ripoff it is not. > [@](#): > > or the “Demon with a Glass Hand” Which shares _some_ storyline elements with _Terminator_, but the plot is entirely different. > [@](#): > > I’d say “Alien” is the only _original_ story in the lot. And I wouldn’t be surprised if even that wasn’t the case. I hear it’s pretty much ripped off from _It! The Terror from Beyond Space_, but I haven’t seen it. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/92 "2008-03-19T16:26:28Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] I’d say “Alien” is the only _original_ story in the lot. And I wouldn’t be surprised if even that wasn’t the case. [/QUOTE] [Black Destroyer](http://www.webscription.net/chapters/0743498747/0743498747.htm?blurb) by A. E. van Vogt, published in 1939, if often cited as a source for Alien. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/93 "2008-03-19T17:29:08Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > : > > Originally Posted by MrDibble > > I’d say “Alien” is the only original story in the lot. And I wouldn’t be surprised if even that wasn’t the case. > > Black Destroyer by A. E. van Vogt, published in 1939, if often cited as a source for Alien. > [@](#): > > I hear it’s pretty much ripped off from It! The Terror from Beyond Space, but I haven’t seen it. I’ve read **Black Destroyer** (and **Discord in Scarlet** and **The Voyage of the Space Beagle** by A.E. van Vogt, and seen \*\*It! The Terror from Beyond Space \*\*many times. IMHO, **Alien** is a direct rip-off of It!, with bits thrown in from Mario Bava’s **Planet of Vampires** and Roger Corman’s **Night of the Blood Beast**. It’s the same damned plot, with the Creature picked up on the apparently deserted planet pickibng off members of the crew and skulking through the ventilation ducts, then getting offed at the end by the crew dionning space suits and opening the airlock. The plot of Black destroyer et al. is completely different. Van Vogt’s story, AFAIK, was the first to feature the “Alien Creature Loose on a Space Ship”, but the creature in Black Destroyer is pretty intelligent (more than the xenomorph in Alien) and pilots off in an escape craft itself at the end. I’ve no doubt that Jerome Bixby read it before scripting It! (basic situation the same, and the way BD sucks the phosphorous out through his victim’s skins echoes the way It! sucks out water by osmosis. Alien is the barbarian i the bunch, ripping his victims up to no obvious purpose). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/94 "2008-03-20T00:31:06Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] So you’ve never heard of “Hidden Fortress”, or the “Demon with a Glass Hand” and “Soldier” _Outer Limits_ episodes? And see **freekalette** ’s link. I’d say “Alien” is the only _original_ story in the lot. And I wouldn’t be surprised if even that wasn’t the case. Just because the others weren’t ripped off from a source with the same title, doesn’t make them remotely “original”. [/QUOTE] We’re using the word “original” in two different senses. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/95 "2008-03-20T02:37:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, yeah, it’s on my list. But can someone say something about why it’s essentially about the medium and not just about the idea of the superhero that evolved in that medium? To give an example that’s already been mentioned there’s _Tales of the Black Freighter_, the comic book within the comic book. Moore used it to highlight the similarities and differences between the comic book in the characters’ world and the comic book the was the characters’ world. And there’s its context; in our world, genres like pirate comics were driven out of the market by the popularity of superhero comic books. In Moore’s world where real superheroes exist, nobody reads about them in comic books - making the points that comic books are an escapist artform and that reality can ruin the illusion that’s needed for popular fiction. Moore also had Carmine Infantino draw the pirates comic book as opposed to Dave Gibbons who drew the main portion of the series. Readers familiar with the genre would recognize Infantino as an artist from the Silver Age of comics and realize that Moore was seeking to invoke nostalgia for an earlier style of comic books. This isn’t just me deconstructing Moore’s book. I’ve read his script for the book, along with his notes to the artists and editors. He really was consciously putting a multitude of subtle things like this into the series. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/96 "2008-03-20T05:49:09Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] We’re using the word “original” in two different senses. [/QUOTE] So you pretty much only care that the _title_ is original? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/97 "2008-03-20T22:46:35Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] By the way, _Watchmen_ is not a graphic novel in the strictest sense of the term. The collected volume is a trade paperback, though people have taken to calling them graphic novels over the last several years. I think they perceive it to sound more legitimate than “comic book.” [/QUOTE] I agree with the other poster who said that serialization does not denigrate something from graphic novel status anymore than it did to certain classics of literature. Clearly Watchmen (as well as most other maxi- and mini-series), which was conceptualized from the start as a 12 part story with a definitive structure and ending, cannot be put in the same category as simple collections of ongoing series. [QUOTE=freekalette] Taken from Wiki : “Comparisons have also been made to Grant Morrison’s comic series The Invisibles; Morrison believes that the Wachowski brothers essentially plagiarized his work to create the film.” [/QUOTE] I’ve heard this before, but I’ve seen the Matrix trilogy and read the entire Invisibles series, and other than a certain sensibility, they bare almost no resemblance to each other. I’m seriously shocked that Morrison himself would say such a thing. It’s paramount to calling Alien a plagiarism of Star Wars because they both have space ships and aliens. Actually, Matrix and Invisibles are even less alike than that. But in any case, the “original” point of the poster was about _direct adaptations_, not lack of complete originality. I for one look forward to the movie. I’ve weathered both great and crappy adaptations of works I love in the past, and neither has made me love the original any less. Whether the movie succeeds or fails, we still have the graphic novel - it’s not going anywhere. From the website it looks like they are trying to be fairly faithful, and it seems to me that Miller’s other stuff has been somewhat faithful (altho less complex), so I’m optimistic. I have a feeling, tho, that the lack of full frontal blueness will irk me. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/98 "2008-03-20T23:23:36Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] So you’ve never heard of “Hidden Fortress”, or the “Demon with a Glass Hand” and “Soldier” _Outer Limits_ episodes? And see **freekalette** ’s link. I’d say “Alien” is the only _original_ story in the lot. And I wouldn’t be surprised if even that wasn’t the case. Just because the others weren’t ripped off from a source with the same title, doesn’t make them remotely “original”. [/QUOTE] Can you give an example of what you consider to be an original story? Because I can’t really think of anything, in any medium, that doesn’t borrow from it’s predecessors to a degree that would preclude calling it “original,” at least under the standard you’ve established here for that term. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/99 "2008-03-21T00:21:36Z")
Piece of tripe is what I say. No, seriously, I think **Watchmen** is ridiculously oversold. Yes, sequential art can do this kind of thing. Thank you, johnny-come-latelies to reading the form, for finally getting the memo. Yes, Moore & Gibbons know how to tell a story visually. Moore actually understands both writing in English & writing in pictures, & that’s not true of everyone in “comics.” But good grief, it’s a burlesque of super-heroes! Why anyone would try to sell a new reader of long-form cartooning on something that’s mainly trying to send up & rethink over twenty previous works, without any familiarity with the source material? Fans of Watchmen occasionally are like people who think **Star Wars** was original. edited to add: Oh, oh, & then there are the nuts who think that somehow, by populating his work with a cast the majority of which are unlikeable in some way, Moore “proved” that costumed adventurers are necessarily vile. Which is a curious opinion, considering the vanishingly small sample of real-world costumed adventurers. Perhaps it’s gained currency due to people tiring of the surfeit of “super-hero” comics. Mostly I think most people can’t do logic. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948/100 "2008-03-21T00:38:31Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] So you pretty much only care that the _title_ is original? [/QUOTE] No. Obviously not. But I really don’t care to argue about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/watchmen/438948.md?page=6)